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Author Topic: Tenants Kill the Son vs. Herod's Temple: How to Play "Instead" Abilities  (Read 851 times)

Offline BubbleBoy

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Tenants Kill the Son vs. Herod's Temple: How to Play "Instead" Abilities
« on: November 10, 2010, 05:41:37 PM »
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I make a rescue attempt with a purple disciple with Herod's Temple out and 2 redeemed souls. My opponent blocks with a pharisee and plays Tenants Kill the Son, discarding my hero and drawing a card. I then use the ability on HT to discard a purple card from my hand and the top 2 cards of my deck instead of discarding my hero. At this point, my hero was not discarded, so my opponent puts the card he drew from TKtS back on his deck. But my question is this: Should he have drawn that card in the first place, or should he have waited until I decided whether or not I would use the instead ability?
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Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: Tenants Kill the Son vs. Herod's Temple: How to Play "Instead" Abilities
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2010, 05:47:18 PM »
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The draw is conditional, so your opponent could not draw until you discarded the hero. If you knew you might "instead" it, then you need to let your opponent know before they draw. The opponent should not assume the draw is okay until confirmation of the discard.

This is important since they might have drawn (and immediately used) a dominant.
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Rawrlolsauce!

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Re: Tenants Kill the Son vs. Herod's Temple: How to Play "Instead" Abilities
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2010, 05:48:58 PM »
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I don't think Herod's Temple has the authority to insert itself between the discard and draw ability. I'd say you played that right.
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Tenants Kill the Son vs. Herod's Temple: How to Play "Instead" Abilities
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2010, 05:50:52 PM »
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I would say that you should wait. The way I see it is thus: you shouldn't draw until your opponent's Hero goes to the discard pile (just like I believe you shouldn't draw with Gifts until your opponent actually draws). Not everyone plays it that way, and I don't know if the rules make that clear or not, but that's how I see it. Thus, you wouldn't draw a card until the Hero goes to the discard pile, and so if you save him with HT, then the opponent should never draw.
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Lamborghini_diablo

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Re: Tenants Kill the Son vs. Herod's Temple: How to Play "Instead" Abilities
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2010, 05:56:07 PM »
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Just use Dishonest trader, so you KNOW you can get that one card draw!
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Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: Tenants Kill the Son vs. Herod's Temple: How to Play "Instead" Abilities
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2010, 05:59:57 PM »
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Quote from: Professoralstad on November 10, 2010, 05:50:52 PM
Not everyone plays it that way, and I don't know if the rules make that clear or not, but that's how I see it.

BubbleBoy's title query is valid. We need to know how "instead" is going to be officially defined so that we can make consistent rulings. I agree with you, since that is how I see "instead" being defined. However, I am not an Elder. We need another Elder to rule before we can call this official, unless this has already been decided in the PTB Alternate Dimension.  ;)
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Tenants Kill the Son vs. Herod's Temple: How to Play "Instead" Abilities
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2010, 06:07:02 PM »
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Quote from: YourMathTeacher on November 10, 2010, 05:59:57 PM
Quote from: Professoralstad on November 10, 2010, 05:50:52 PM
Not everyone plays it that way, and I don't know if the rules make that clear or not, but that's how I see it.

BubbleBoy's title query is valid. We need to know how "instead" is going to be officially defined so that we can make consistent rulings. I agree with you, since that is how I see "instead" being defined. However, I am not an Elder. We need another Elder to rule before we can call this official, unless this has already been decided in the PTB Alternate Dimension.  ;)

It has been officially defined. I'll see if I can find the thread.

Here it is.
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Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Tenants Kill the Son vs. Herod's Temple: How to Play "Instead" Abilities
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2010, 08:34:03 PM »
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I'd rule that you complete the ability on the card, then the insteading triggers at the insteader's discretion, then undo whatever would be undone by the insteading if applicable, then Dominants can be played. That both stops slapjacking, follows the rules of abilities completing, avoids situations of "I wanted to do this, no, I wanted to do this," and fosters a faster playing environment without making speed of play a physical factor that can determine game outcomes.
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