Author Topic: Color Question (Read 2650 times)

Praeceps · « **on:** November 26, 2013, 11:01:43 PM »

Can Zimri son of Salu (may band to a female EC of any brigade except brown to...) band to Foreign Wives?

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #1 on:** November 26, 2013, 11:18:04 PM »

Yes, it has a color other than Brown (I believe that is the wording) I know he has been ruled to be able to band to Jezebel, so the same would apply to Foreign Wives.

Praeceps · « **Reply #2 on:** November 26, 2013, 11:19:33 PM »

Sweet, Thanks

Redoubter · « **Reply #3 on:** November 27, 2013, 05:18:57 PM »

Quote from: ChristianSoldier on November 26, 2013, 11:18:04 PM

Yes, it has a color other than Brown (I believe that is the wording) I know he has been ruled to be able to band to Jezebel, so the same would apply to Foreign Wives.

I would disagree based on the wording of the card:
Interrupt Wall of Protection. May band to a female Evil Character of any brigade except brown to decrease a Hero in play by 0/6.

I would agree if it said "with a brigade other than brown", but it says "any brigade except brown". The 'except' would exclude as a target any female EC with a brigade of brown. Therefore, I would say that he cannot band to Foreign Wives.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #4 on:** November 28, 2013, 08:55:07 AM »

Can we have an Elder ruling (or verification) on this? I would also like list of SA wordings/phrases that distinguish when multicolors do count, and when they don't. Semantics are not a good way to make rulings, since they are too open for disagreement. To me, for instance, "other than" and "except" are the same, so I would not be able to distinguish Redoubter's claim.

Redoubter · « **Reply #5 on:** November 28, 2013, 09:16:29 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on November 28, 2013, 08:55:07 AM

Can we have an Elder ruling (or verification) on this? I would also like list of SA wordings/phrases that distinguish when multicolors do count, and when they don't. Semantics are not a good way to make rulings, since they are too open for disagreement. To me, for instance, "other than" and "except" are the same, so I would not be able to distinguish Redoubter's claim.

I agree with YMT. These kinds of words can mean one thing logically, one thing semantically, and another grammatically. I'm fine with whatever ruling we get, as long as it is consistent to all of these words

Nameless · « **Reply #6 on:** November 28, 2013, 09:18:58 AM »

This might help. And this.

Redoubter · « **Reply #7 on:** November 28, 2013, 09:37:53 AM »

Quote from: Nameless on November 28, 2013, 09:18:58 AM

This might help. And this.

That was a year and a half ago

I reserve the right to change my opinion on grammar, and I never even looked at the full ability in that thread like in this one it seems

I see a Prof A post from 2011 as the only potential confirmation, can we get a stamp or a dissent in this particular case?

browarod · « **Reply #8 on:** November 28, 2013, 08:28:45 PM »

Per the linked threads, the other one about Zimri specifically, I would disagree with Polarius. "May band to a female Evil Character of any brigade except brown" and "May band to a female Evil Character except brown" are the exact same ability, the "of any brigade" does nothing to change how it targets (in Redemption lingo, "of any brigade" in this special ability would be clarifying text). It also does nothing to clarify the current conundrum.

Regarding the other thread, I'm actually going against my own opinion from last time (*gasp*) and would agree with Redoubter on this one (who also changed his mind, haha). I feel that "except brown" should mean that the target cannot be in any way brown, as opposed to just having something in addition to brown.

Redoubter · « **Reply #9 on:** November 28, 2013, 08:43:56 PM »

Quote from: browarod on November 28, 2013, 08:28:45 PM

I'm actually going against my own opinion from last time (*gasp*) and would agree with Redoubter on this one (who also changed his mind, haha).

Good grief, what is going on around here

But yes, that is how I would read the rules currently, though I agree with YMT's assessment about having all of these words specifically defined (a lot like how we defined all words about references to the battle, whether it is "field of battle" or "current battle", for an example).

Professoralstad · « **Reply #10 on:** December 04, 2013, 04:00:38 PM »

Interrupt Wall of Protection. May band to a female Evil Character of any brigade except brown to decrease a Hero in play by 0/6.

What this means is that Zimri can band to a Black, Crimson, Gold, Gray, Orange or Pale Green Evil Character, regardless of any other brigades that character may have. So Zimri can band to Jezebel, Foreign Wives, Damsel, etc. He cannot band to Athaliah, Gomer, etc.

If the wording were "May band to a non-brown female Evil Character" or "May band to a female Evil Character (except a brown Evil Character)" then he couldn't band to Foreign Wives. But he can.

browarod · « **Reply #11 on:** December 04, 2013, 04:38:22 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on December 04, 2013, 04:00:38 PM

May band to a female Evil Character of any brigade except brown

"May band to a female Evil Character (except a brown Evil Character)"

I fail to see a difference between the meanings of these phrases. If I say "I like to eat donuts with any filling except jelly" or "I like to eat filled donuts except donuts with jelly filling" I'm saying the exact same thing each time, and neither one means I would eat a half jelly and half cream donut.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #12 on:** December 04, 2013, 05:23:37 PM »

Actually, if you say you like to eat donuts with any filling except jelly, then logically speaking, a half cream/half jelly donut would qualify, because it does in fact have a non-jelly filling. The word "except" in the first means that the only brigade (filling) that doesn't qualify is brown (jelly). Any other brigades (fillings) do qualify, so having a qualifying brigade (filling) such as black (cream) qualifies the target regardless of the existence of any non-qualifying brigades. In the second, what he have is a disqualifying brigade (filling) i.e, brown (jelly) is a disqualifying attribute. So any brown (or jelly filling) on the Evil Character (donut) would disqualify it from consideration.

yirgogo · « **Reply #13 on:** December 04, 2013, 05:27:45 PM »

The wording makes it say that brown is an non-viable brigade, not an excluded one.

Redoubter · « **Reply #14 on:** December 04, 2013, 06:16:47 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on December 04, 2013, 05:23:37 PM

Actually, if you say you like to eat donuts with any filling except jelly, then logically speaking, a half cream/half jelly donut would qualify, because it does in fact have a non-jelly filling. The word "except" in the first means that the only brigade (filling) that doesn't qualify is brown (jelly). Any other brigades (fillings) do qualify, so having a qualifying brigade (filling) such as black (cream) qualifies the target regardless of the existence of any non-qualifying brigades. In the second, what he have is a disqualifying brigade (filling) i.e, brown (jelly) is a disqualifying attribute. So any brown (or jelly filling) on the Evil Character (donut) would disqualify it from consideration.

As funny as this conversation is, I completely agree with browarod, and I can't understand the logic above, unfortunately. If my brother says "I like all pizza except pepperoni" it would be because he doesn't like pepperoni (he doesn't, he's weird). If you put pepperoni on with things that he likes, he still won't eat that pizza. The 'except' means that that is excluded, not that putting it with something else is acceptable.

If anything is acceptable "except brown", then brown is not acceptable logically. Putting it with other colors should still make it excluded, because the condition stands.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #15 on:** December 04, 2013, 07:11:37 PM »

Adding an additional example of food toppings/fillings does not clarify the position any further.

"May band to a female Evil Character of any brigade except brown" is shorthand for "May band to a black, crimson, gold, gray, orange or pale green female Evil Character". just as "May search for an O.T. good card of any brigade other than teal is shorthand for "May search for an O.T. blue, gold, green, purple, red, silver or white good card." Assuming there were a limited number of donut fillings/pizza toppings, similar logic would apply.

Could it have been worded better? Certainly. But it is perfectly logical for it to work as I have suggested, it meshes well with previous rulings on Zadok Anoints, and it is by no means OP'd. Hopefully another Elder can come in and confirm it, but until that happens, for any tournaments that I am involved with wherein my ruling is asked for, everyone can use this as a reference. I can assure you that my position won't change.

Redoubter · « **Reply #16 on:** December 04, 2013, 09:08:36 PM »

Actually, Zadok Anoints supports the case browarod and I are trying to make. It is precisely the language you would use to indicate that it has a brigade besides brown, because that is how you indicate "it has at least one brigade that is not brown". Saying "except brown" is exclusive; saying "other than brown" is potentially inclusive.

"With any brigade other than teal" literally means that it just has to have any other brigade, but it doesn't exclude teal cards.

"Of any brigade except brown" means that it cannot have brown.

browarod · « **Reply #17 on:** December 05, 2013, 10:47:07 AM »

Without doing a massive quote post to point out things from the couple of posts I've missed since yesterday, I think it boils down to a disagreement over the word "except." Grammatically speaking, in the English language, "except" is always exclusive, regardless of where it exists in the sentence. Or so all of my high school/college English classes (and my computer/html coding classes as well, actually) have taught me.

Also, I agree with Redoubter, Zadok Anoints does not apply in this situation because it has different wording. "Except" is exclusive, "other than" is not.

galadgawyn · « **Reply #18 on:** December 05, 2013, 12:54:04 PM »

I agree with browarod and redoubter's logic and points. I can understand prof's logic if he is using a different definition of "except".

browarod · « **Reply #19 on:** December 09, 2013, 12:08:20 PM »

Could we get another Elder to comment on this question? I can accept Professoralstad's view on it (even though I disagree) but I'd like some confirmation either way if possible.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #20 on:** December 09, 2013, 08:53:59 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on December 04, 2013, 09:08:36 PM

"With any brigade other than teal" literally means that it just has to have any other brigade, but it doesn't exclude teal cards.

"Of any brigade except brown" means that it cannot have brown.

This makes sense to me. I'll start a discussion with the other elders to see if we can come to a consensus.

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Author Topic: Color Question (Read 2650 times)

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