Author Topic: The Flood + Special Initiative (Read 2321 times)

Josh · « **on:** January 22, 2017, 10:43:00 PM »

Scenario today in-game: I rescue with a Red hero. My opponent blocks with an antediluvian and plays The Flood. I have special initiative to negate, and have Foreign Sword in hand.

However, The Flood removes itself from the game before it discards all cards in battle. Does this mean that only "Negate Last" or "Interrupt the Battle" abilities can negate The Flood? We ruled that FS would not be able to be used in special initiative.

The Flood - "If used by a Flood Survivor or an evil antediluvian, remove this card from the game to discard all cards in the Field of Battle (except Flood Survivors) and all evil cards in play and set-aside areas."

Foreign Sword - "Negate an opponent’s evil or neutral card. If used by a Canaanite or Philistine, you may return that card to the top of owner’s deck."

kariusvega · « **Reply #1 on:** January 22, 2017, 11:33:40 PM »

with special initiative the card has not yet been completely removed from the game..

it's on it's way but you get the opportunity to negate it

The Guardian · « **Reply #2 on:** January 23, 2017, 12:03:20 AM »

Correct^^ It has never been ruled that cards like Joseph in Prison and Korah's Rebellion needed to be negated by a negate last.

_JM_ · « **Reply #3 on:** January 23, 2017, 12:22:22 AM »

One difference between The Flood and Joseph in Prison/Korah's Rebellion is that The Flood is worded as a cost/benefit, while the other two are a singular action. When The Flood starts discarding everything, it has already removed itself from the game as part of the cost to get that discard ("...remove this card from the game to discard all cards..."), so SI's 'pause button' doesn't necessarily freeze all cards affected by The Flood in the same place as all those affected by JiP or KR.

Looking in the REG at the Special Initiative entry, I found this: "If the card with the removing ability was already removed from play due to its ability, it may still be targeted during Special Initiative by an enhancement that specifically targets its card type." A cost/benefit reading of The Flood indicates that The Flood must be removed from the game in order for the discard to occur - does this mean that The Flood is removed from the game while Special Initiative occurs?

If so, is "an opponent's evil or neutral card" specific enough in targeting a card type to satisfy the REG clause quoted?

Josh · « **Reply #4 on:** January 23, 2017, 12:33:39 AM »

Quote from: The Guardian on January 23, 2017, 12:03:20 AM

Correct^^ It has never been ruled that cards like Joseph in Prison and Korah's Rebellion needed to be negated by a negate last.

As JM pointed out, the big difference between The Flood and Jip/etc. is that JiP removes all at once, while The Flood is cost/benefit - it is already removed from the game via an earlier ability before SI is granted.

Put another way, SI "goes back in time" to right before the ability removing your last character activates, not to the beginning of the ability. For JiP/etc., this is before it removes itself along with all other cards in battle. For The Flood, it goes back to right before the discard, but this is still after The Flood has removed itself from the game with its prior "cost" ability.

Here's the full REG quote for SI:
"When a player is controlling character(s) in battle and an opponent's activating special
ability, or a game rule that has been triggered by an opponent's activating special ability,
would leave that player with no character in battle when the special ability has completed,
they have Special Initiative.

When this occurs, suspend the card causing the removal, additional abilities waiting to
activate, and any triggers (currently active ongoing abilities remain active). The player with
their character(s) being removed has the opportunity to play an Enhancement that will
interrupt or negate the ability that is causing the removal (or that triggered the corresponding
game rule). The enhancement played must be able to interrupt or negate the removing ability.
If the card with the removing ability was already removed from play due to its ability, it may
still be targeted during Special Initiative by an enhancement that specifically targets its card
type.

This only occurs once per activation of an opponent's special ability. If a removing ability is
negated (or cannot reactivate after an interrupt effect is played) and the negate (or interrupt
effect that prevented reactivation) is later undone such that the original removing ability
reactivates, this would trigger a separate instance of Special Initiative."

Watchman · « **Reply #5 on:** January 23, 2017, 08:15:40 AM »

Based upon the quoted REG entry in this thread...

"If the card with the removing ability was already removed from play due to its ability, it may
still be targeted during Special Initiative by an enhancement that specifically targets its card type."

...it would seem to me that FS would be able to target The Flood.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #6 on:** January 23, 2017, 09:44:41 AM »

What is a "card type?" If it refers to categories such as "Enhancement," then FS would seemingly not be able to negate The Flood.

kariusvega · « **Reply #7 on:** January 23, 2017, 10:27:22 AM »

This question was already answered, but I do want to point out that the flood does have one whole ability which is triggering si..

This is unlike sss which that specific portion of the reg is referring to in a sss/gams like scenario. Basically it's saying that foreign sword (and negates like fs) and gams or gams like enh may both be used to negate the flood

_JM_ · « **Reply #8 on:** January 23, 2017, 10:53:19 AM »

Suicidal Swine Stampede has nothing to do with this scenario - it never triggers Special Initiative.

The Flood does trigger SI, so we have to consider all of the implications of that. The Flood is worded as cost (remove this card from the game) / benefit (to discard all the stuff). It's the benefit (discard everything) that triggers SI here, so where is The Flood when SI triggers? Is it removed from the game, or does SI pause it before it gets there? Since removal from the game is a cost to get the benefit, I'm not sure that SI can pull The Flood back from game removal.

Once that question gets answered, then you have to consider Foreign Sword. If The Flood is not in the removed from game zone, then yeah, Foreign Sword hits it. But if it is removed from the game when Foreign Sword gets played, is Foreign Sword specific enough to hit The Flood? SI requires that targeting an out-of-play card specifically hits the card type, while Foreign Sword only hits evil cards. I can't find an actual definition for "card type" in the REG, but the definition for evil card is "When a special ability or deck building rule refers to an evil card it means curse (serpent icon), Evil Character (dragon icon), evil enhancement (skull icon), evil dominant (reaper icon), or evil fortress (fortress with dark rainbow colors)." Reading that, I would infer that "evil card" has multiple card types, as listed in the definition. Since Foreign Sword only references the general "evil card", I don't think it's specific enough to hit an out of play card in Special Initiative.

Next REG edit should definitely clarify what "card type" means, though. Or clarify what that part of SI means.

The Guardian · « **Reply #9 on:** January 23, 2017, 12:21:12 PM »

My understanding is that SI suspends the entire card, not just the specific ability that is causing the removal so The Flood is not removed until SI has resolved, and can thus be targeted by Foreign Sword.

kariusvega · « **Reply #10 on:** January 23, 2017, 12:56:42 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on January 23, 2017, 12:21:12 PM

My understanding is that SI suspends the entire card, not just the specific ability that is causing the removal so The Flood is not removed until SI has resolved, and can thus be targeted by Foreign Sword.

Watchman · « **Reply #11 on:** January 23, 2017, 01:04:29 PM »

It sounds to me like card type is referring to opposite alignment, although it obviously doesn't specify that but implies it. Since FS targets an evil card, and The Flood is being played as an evil card, then FS is targeting that card type (evil).

_JM_ · « **Reply #12 on:** January 23, 2017, 01:41:52 PM »

Quote from: Watchman492 on January 23, 2017, 01:04:29 PM

It sounds to me like card type is referring to opposite alignment, although it obviously doesn't specify that but implies it. Since FS targets an evil card, and The Flood is being played as an evil card, then FS is targeting that card type (evil).

I'd disagree with that - I think that "card type" is trying to refer to Hero, Evil Character, Good Enhancement, Fortress, Artifact, etc. "Evil card" would then be a collection of card types. I believe I've actually found an REG entry to support that, too - Icon Box reads "The icon box is located in the upper left corner of the card. It contains the symbol for the card type, the brigade of the card, and the abilities (*/*) of the card." Going off of that, the card type is linked to the symbol, so Foreign Sword doesn't target a specific card type, rather it targets by alignment.

That distinction doesn't really matter in this case anymore, though, unless another Elder wants to chime in on The Guardian's interpretation.

Josh · « **Reply #13 on:** January 23, 2017, 01:51:09 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on January 23, 2017, 12:21:12 PM

My understanding is that SI suspends the entire card, not just the specific ability that is causing the removal so The Flood is not removed until SI has resolved, and can thus be targeted by Foreign Sword.

If this is the case, then the REG needs to be reworded. The exact phrasing in the SI entry is "When this [special initiative] occurs, suspend the card causing the removal, additional abilities waiting to activate, and any triggers (currently active ongoing abilities remain active)."

The phrasing "suspend... additional abilities waiting to activate" implies that the ability is stopped "mid-ability", not that the whole ability is undone.

*****

Let's look at another example. This also happened in that game: I attack, my opponent blocks with Messenger of Satan banded to FW, I play Sword of the Spirit to negate/discard MoS. Does my opponent have SI to play an Orange EE, or does he have SI to play any EE? I've always seen this played as they have SI to play an Orange EE, since the negate ability happens (and completes) before the discard ability.

kariusvega · « **Reply #14 on:** January 23, 2017, 04:20:24 PM »

Quote from: jmhartz on January 23, 2017, 01:51:09 PM

Quote from: The Guardian on January 23, 2017, 12:21:12 PM
My understanding is that SI suspends the entire card, not just the specific ability that is causing the removal so The Flood is not removed until SI has resolved, and can thus be targeted by Foreign Sword.
does he have SI to play any EE?

yes

Josh · « **Reply #15 on:** January 23, 2017, 05:18:55 PM »

Quote from: kariusvega on January 23, 2017, 04:20:24 PM

Quote from: jmhartz on January 23, 2017, 01:51:09 PM
does he have SI to play any EE?

yes

I've never seen this scenario played this way. And it happens more than you think, with all the negate+battlewinners that exist now.

Either way, since we don't have a Redemption definition for the word "suspend", we have to go with the English meaning as implied by the context. And the definition of SI in the REG clearly implies that the special ability is suspended mid-ability.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #16 on:** January 23, 2017, 08:48:01 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on January 23, 2017, 12:21:12 PM

My understanding is that SI suspends the entire card, not just the specific ability that is causing the removal so The Flood is not removed until SI has resolved, and can thus be targeted by Foreign Sword.

That's not what it says, though.

Watchman · « **Reply #17 on:** January 24, 2017, 08:16:06 AM »

Quote from: _JM_ on January 23, 2017, 01:41:52 PM

Quote from: Watchman492 on January 23, 2017, 01:04:29 PM
It sounds to me like card type is referring to opposite alignment, although it obviously doesn't specify that but implies it. Since FS targets an evil card, and The Flood is being played as an evil card, then FS is targeting that card type (evil).

I'd disagree with that - I think that "card type" is trying to refer to Hero, Evil Character, Good Enhancement, Fortress, Artifact, etc. "Evil card" would then be a collection of card types. I believe I've actually found an REG entry to support that, too - Icon Box reads "The icon box is located in the upper left corner of the card. It contains the symbol for the card type, the brigade of the card, and the abilities (*/*) of the card." Going off of that, the card type is linked to the symbol, so Foreign Sword doesn't target a specific card type, rather it targets by alignment.

That distinction doesn't really matter in this case anymore, though, unless another Elder wants to chime in on The Guardian's interpretation.

I'd disagree with myself too.

What I had in mind when I wrote that was typically it's a card of opposite alignment that causes the removal from battle (not always the case, obviously, such as Unholy Writ). Card type, of course, can mean any card that's removing the last card from the battle.

Josh · « **Reply #18 on:** February 01, 2017, 10:34:32 AM »

Quote from: jmhartz on January 23, 2017, 05:18:55 PM

Either way, since we don't have a Redemption definition for the word "suspend", we have to go with the English meaning as implied by the context. And the definition of SI in the REG clearly implies that the special ability is suspended mid-ability.

Bumping this. I know the PTB are probably quite busy right now, but a question about the definition of Special Initiative is very important to Redemption.

As of right now, cost-benefit battlewinners like The Flood, Saul's Spear, and those Black spears are looking better if they can only be negated by a "negate last" or "interrupt the battle" ability.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #19 on:** February 01, 2017, 01:09:05 PM »

Quote from: jmhartz on January 23, 2017, 12:33:39 AM

When this occurs, suspend the card causing the removal, additional abilities waiting to
activate, and any triggers (currently active ongoing abilities remain active). The player with
their character(s) being removed has the opportunity to play an Enhancement that will
interrupt or negate the ability that is causing the removal (or that triggered the corresponding
game rule). The enhancement played must be able to interrupt or negate the removing ability.
If the card with the removing ability was already removed from play due to its ability, it may
still be targeted during Special Initiative by an enhancement that specifically targets its card
type.

Im not sure where the confusion is coming from

Quote from: Minister Polarius on January 23, 2017, 09:44:41 AM

What is a "card type?" If it refers to categories such as "Enhancement," then FS would seemingly not be able to negate The Flood.

The REG is giving one case describing what can target cards in SI. It's not exclusive at all.

Josh · « **Reply #20 on:** February 01, 2017, 02:47:37 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit on February 01, 2017, 01:09:05 PM

Im not sure where the confusion is coming from

The confusion is coming from what the REG says to do when SI is triggered:

"When this occurs, suspend the card causing the removal, additional abilities waiting to activate, and any triggers (currently active ongoing abilities remain active)."

So what does "suspend the card" mean? There's no Redemption definition, so we resort to an English definition - which implies the ability is stopped "mid-ability".

If The Flood is stopped mid-ability (i.e., at the point in its ability that is causing SI), it has already removed itself from play. So only a "Negate last" or "Interrupt the battle" ability should be able to target it.

megamanlan · « **Reply #21 on:** February 08, 2017, 05:38:28 PM »

I haven't been in this game for a long time, but from what I understood (from at least a year ago) but SI just meant you can use Interrupt or Negate effects before cost or effects are resolved. (Unlike Yugioh where cost can't be stopped but the effect can be.) I don't know if this is still the case but that's how it was before.

News:

Author Topic: The Flood + Special Initiative (Read 2321 times)

kariusvega

kariusvega

kariusvega

kariusvega

TheHobbit13