Author Topic: Cloud confusion (Read 3343 times)

emonier · « **Reply #25 on:** February 23, 2017, 07:43:23 PM »

If it does not involve searching, the Hezekiah's Signet Ring does nothing.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #26 on:** February 23, 2017, 08:00:06 PM »

Oh but it does involve searching after you name the card you get to look through your opponents hand, discard pile and deck to remove the card

The Schaefer · « **Reply #27 on:** February 23, 2017, 08:09:48 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on February 23, 2017, 07:42:11 PM

I don't think you're hearing what I'm saying I hope you're not trying to make feel bad or quit playing the game because I'm questioning some rules, with your sorry you don't like it comment. What I'm saying is there are too many little tiny intricate rules it's too hard for new people to play the game and explain everything to them that's probably why there aren't that many people that play the game, they get frustrated. Don't get me wrong I like the game it I've been playing it since the beginning it's just that we make rules up that sounds good at the time so we rule that way. And that's okay but somewhere down the line things change and we need to look at them just see what needs to be done if anything. And just because something is ruled that way doesn't mean it's the right way. We have had so many rule changes because someone questioned it. That's fine an interrupt can not interrupt a card that's no longer in the game but in my opinion neither should a "negate last". We need to update the REG because it sounds like we are targeting the ability and not the card

General Description
A negate ability takes a previously completed ability and undoes the effect of that ability, and it keeps the
uncompleted activation of an ability from ever completing.

General Description
An interrupt ability temporarily undoes a previously completed ability or set of abilities and suspends them while
activating other abilities on the interrupt card before the suspended abilities reactivate.

I'm hearing what your saying and I'm definitely not trying to make you feel bad or quit playing. I've explained it to the best of my ability and you just seem to be missing the explanation. I'm sorry that it is confusing and that is something the elders to to improve but as is the ruling is what it is. The explanation is already there. I said the I'm sorry if you don't like it part because many people don't like the rule and thing arguing about it to everyone even after its been explained will somehow make the rule change which isn't the case. We're not here to argue or dishearten you but rather explain it to you. If you don't like the explanation or aren't satisfied with it I don't know what more to tell you is all. Not to seem rude. I try to explain things the best I can and offer ways to deal with problematic cards so that new players don't get disheartened. Rather than focus on intricate details that deter from the game I try to focus on what you can actually do to solve your situation. I wish you only the best and positive experiences in Redemption. Sorry if I offended you in some way.

Quote from: emonier on February 23, 2017, 07:43:23 PM

If it does not involve searching, the Hezekiah's Signet Ring does nothing.

Confusion(Cow) has an implied search ability. That's why I mentioned the term implied search in an earlier post. Because of this implied search Hezekiah's Signet Ring stops Confusion from checking (searching) for the named card in your deck or discard.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #28 on:** February 23, 2017, 08:18:40 PM »

Really I don't have a problem with the ruling whatsoever in fact it rules in my favor. The problem that I have is I have to come to the Forum to find out the rule instead of reading it and rule book. Because if I read it in the rulebook it says one thing and a ruling says something different that's all. Then yes you explained it better than anyone else here has been able to so I do understand but it just doesn't make sense for one and not the other. But that's okay with me because I'll use it to my advantage. Thanks

thejambi · « **Reply #29 on:** February 23, 2017, 08:23:08 PM »

Quote from: The Schaefer on February 23, 2017, 07:29:38 PM

Covenant of Noah ... only is able to take effect after ALL of confusion's ability is complete...

I think this answers the question I had, thanks. If I'm understanding, this is because of how interrupt (or negate) works. "An interrupt ability temporarily undoes a previously completed ability or set of abilities and suspends them while
activating other abilities on the interrupt card before the suspended abilities reactivate."

Ergo, abilities complete before they can be messed with.

Eragon5 · « **Reply #30 on:** February 23, 2017, 09:10:56 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on February 23, 2017, 08:18:40 PM

Really I don't have a problem with the ruling whatsoever in fact it rules in my favor. The problem that I have is I have to come to the Forum to find out the rule instead of reading it and rule book. Because if I read it in the rulebook it says one thing and a ruling says something different that's all. Then yes you explained it better than anyone else here has been able to so I do understand but it just doesn't make sense for one and not the other. But that's okay with me because I'll use it to my advantage. Thanks

I am completely with you on this one, my only real issue with redemption is that every three games or so I come across a bizarre situation where something can be ruled more than one way. It is super annoying to have to try and keep current with all the rulings that might not be apparent intuitively. However, the elders have started making changes that are streamlining the game and for that I am grateful. While things might not be perfect in the meantime I'm hoping that the need for knowing certain rulings like this will be cut to a minimum.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #31 on:** February 23, 2017, 09:16:36 PM »

Quote from: thejambi on February 23, 2017, 08:23:08 PM

Quote from: The Schaefer on February 23, 2017, 07:29:38 PM
Covenant of Noah ... only is able to take effect after ALL of confusion's ability is complete...

I think this answers the question I had, thanks. If I'm understanding, this is because of how interrupt (or negate) works. "An interrupt ability temporarily undoes a previously completed ability or set of abilities and suspends them while
activating other abilities on the interrupt card before the suspended abilities reactivate."

Ergo, abilities complete before they can be messed with.

Yes but that being said you are able to use a negate that is in your territory to stop confusion.

The Guardian · « **Reply #32 on:** February 23, 2017, 09:35:13 PM »

If it helps to clarify consider this:

If Covenant with Noah said "Interrupt and prevent the last enhancement played by an opponent" then it would work against Confusion.

However, it does not say that so the default targeting is "in play" as with any ability.

The Guardian · « **Reply #33 on:** February 23, 2017, 10:08:02 PM »

Quote from: Red on February 23, 2017, 09:56:44 PM

Also, if a Character or enhancment with a blanket negate all ability entered battle, it would negate confusion after the fact.

Um, no. Those abilities also default to play.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #34 on:** February 23, 2017, 10:08:44 PM »

I was about ready to say red done gone and opened a can of worms. I didn't think that would work. I guess interrupts don't work the way the definition of a real interrupt is. They Don't Really interrupt anything they go back and undo something. We all just assumed when it says interrupt it interrupts whatever is taking place but apparently it doesn't do that whatever is taking place has to take place and complete and then you go back and undo it so it should be called an undo and not an interrupt. Lol a true interrupts should be played any time to interrupt whatever is going on regardless of initiative but I know that's not how it's being played.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #35 on:** February 24, 2017, 05:56:57 AM »

That character would have to have a "negate ALL" ability to target out-of-play XD

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #36 on:** February 24, 2017, 06:10:51 AM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on February 23, 2017, 10:08:44 PM

I guess interrupts don't work the way the definition of a real interrupt is. They Don't Really interrupt anything they go back and undo something. We all just assumed when it says interrupt it interrupts whatever is taking place but apparently it doesn't do that whatever is taking place has to take place and complete and then you go back and undo it so it should be called an undo and not an interrupt. Lol a true interrupts should be played any time to interrupt whatever is going on regardless of initiative but I know that's not how it's being played.

"Interrupt" is a very common term among card games with complex mechanics (so, like, not YuGiOh and Pokemon). You're paying way too much attention to the negation aspect of interrupt that is often but not necessarily linked; interrupt does exactly what it says in English because it interrupts the gamestate at the time of the card's completion. If circumstances change during that interruption, it can end up looking like an "undo," but that's because of circumstances and no fault with using that word. And if we called it "undo" instead of "interrupt" there'd be people confused about why "undo the battle" doesn't undo the battle.

As to your larger problem, what you're doing is the equivalent of reading Mark 9:47 and then wondering why there aren't more one-eyed Christians. Elsewhere in the REG, there is a rule that all abilities only target cards in play unless otherwise specified. You had to come to the board for answers not because they aren't in the rules (although sometimes that's the case, this is not one of them), but because you didn't read the rules thoroughly enough.

That said, the rules structure is definitely too complicated and there is a large barrier to mastery - although the game can be played perfectly fine in most circumstances and its only high-end players that tend to create situations where interpretation is required rather than just a plain reading of the rules. The real problem is when the rules very clearly and explicitly say something, but the PTB just says nah (without changing the offending passage at all).

thejambi · « **Reply #37 on:** February 24, 2017, 07:07:18 AM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on February 24, 2017, 06:10:51 AM

Elsewhere in the REG, there is a rule that all abilities only target cards in play unless otherwise specified.

FYI all, it is stated as "Abilities that don’t specify where their targets must be located by default can only
target cards in play." So you should be able to find it by searching for some of that wording.

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Author Topic: Cloud confusion (Read 3343 times)

emonier

Re: Cloud confusion

Jeremystair

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The Schaefer

Re: Cloud confusion

Jeremystair

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thejambi

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Eragon5

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Jeremystair

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The Guardian

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The Guardian

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Jeremystair

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Minister Polarius

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Minister Polarius

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thejambi

Re: Cloud confusion