Author Topic: Cloud confusion (Read 3236 times)

Jeremystair · « **on:** February 22, 2017, 12:46:19 PM »

How can you stop confusion? Are there any cards and if there are what are they? Seems to me once it's played int removes itself from the game your opponent doesn't have the initiative to stop it right?

Ironisaac · « **Reply #1 on:** February 22, 2017, 12:52:44 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on February 22, 2017, 12:46:19 PM

How can you stop confusion? Are there any cards and if there are what are they? Seems to me once it's played int removes itself from the game your opponent doesn't have the initiative to stop it right?

that's pretty much how it works. you can get rid of it with something like gam's speech, but the only way to do it in battle is when it's a stalemate/mutual destruction, because then you actually have inish.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #2 on:** February 22, 2017, 12:57:42 PM »

What about Covenant of Noah? And what if Moses is in play does gam's speech work, no right?

Ironisaac · « **Reply #3 on:** February 23, 2017, 10:43:09 AM »

moses negates speech unless it was played off of stephen/peter, as they make it CBN

Jeremystair · « **Reply #4 on:** February 23, 2017, 11:01:47 AM »

You avoided does covenant of Noah work? Or maybe you don't know either

Ironisaac · « **Reply #5 on:** February 23, 2017, 11:19:55 AM »

i think it should work, but that apparently that is wrong so i'm just staying out of that issue.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #6 on:** February 23, 2017, 11:22:31 AM »

What who said that was wrong?

Ironisaac · « **Reply #7 on:** February 23, 2017, 11:29:38 AM »

in the other confusion (cow) post a few weeks ago. you asked this same question.

http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/confusion-(cow)/

Jeremystair · « **Reply #8 on:** February 23, 2017, 12:52:32 PM »

Oh yeah I guess so but no one answered it straight! It was a kind of round about answer with no explanation

The Guardian · « **Reply #9 on:** February 23, 2017, 12:59:04 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on February 23, 2017, 12:52:32 PM

Oh yeah I guess so but no one answered it straight! It was a kind of round about answer with no explanation

Two people answered with an explanation.

Confusion removes itself from the game as part of the ability. That ability completes before anything else can be done. Covenant of Noah can only interrupt and prevent enhancements that are in play therefore it cannot target Confusion (CoW).

Jeremystair · « **Reply #10 on:** February 23, 2017, 01:31:29 PM »

Yep still don't get it why can't it interrupt? I don't have to have the initiative to play it and as soon as you play confusion why can't I play Covenant of Noah to interrupt it? And if you can't then the card is way to OP because you can't do nothing to stop it! And how does gam's speech work then?

I keep reading the REG on interrupt and it sounds like he can stop confusion.

Red Wing · « **Reply #11 on:** February 23, 2017, 02:01:28 PM »

The best ways to stop Confusion are preemptive—like Jacob (CoW), Hezzy's Signet Ring, Crowds LS, Nazareth.

Ironisaac · « **Reply #12 on:** February 23, 2017, 02:03:28 PM »

Is the new confusion a search? I didn't think it was...

Red Wing · « **Reply #13 on:** February 23, 2017, 03:33:13 PM »

Quote from: Ironisaac on February 23, 2017, 02:03:28 PM

Is the new confusion a search? I didn't think it was...

Yes Confusion does involve searching the deck/discard pile for the card you name.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #14 on:** February 23, 2017, 03:44:26 PM »

It's kind of funny it doesn't say it on the card anywhere that you have to search out the card it just says name it and then remove it. I've seen people play it and then want to go through my hand my deck and my discard pile and remove Son of God which was in my hand the whole time. I don't think that's the way it should be played. In my opinion you should name the card and then have a judge come over and remove the card from the game that way no one searching out nothing because it doesn't say to do that anywhere on the card. It also doesn't say you can look at your opponent's hand or discard pile or deck. I guess since it says remove it we're taking it as the player who played the card gets to go through and find it to remove it which is kind of a double special ability where your opponent gets to look at all your cards. Not fun when it's played against you and everyone should play with this card in your deck

The Schaefer · « **Reply #15 on:** February 23, 2017, 04:04:37 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on February 23, 2017, 03:44:26 PM

It's kind of funny it doesn't say it on the card anywhere that you have to search out the card it just says name it and then remove it. I've seen people play it and then want to go through my hand my deck and my discard pile and I don't think that's the way it should be played. In my opinion you should name the card and then have a judge come over and remove the card from the game that way no one searching out nothing because it doesn't say to do that anywhere on the card. It also doesn't say you can look at your opponent's hand or discard pile or deck. I guess since it says remove it we're taking it as the player who played the card gets to go through and find it to remove it which is kind of a double-handed play where he gets to look at all your cards.

it's not double handed. It's the way the card was designed. It let's you see what the opponent has and let's you yourself verify that you are getting all the copies of whatever you named. You don't need a judge for that. If you really dislike confusion that much here are some options.

Preemptively stop it. (Via protection or FBTN cards)
Don't let them have initiative for it.
Use your own and name Confusion.
Use "negate last" cards.

Confusion is a very powerful card no doubt but there are plenty of ways to deal with it. Or you can just accept it exists and try to play smarter not harder.

Knowing the rules and key terms will help with trying to beat it. I'd say especially look up implied search. It's a bit confusing but it comes up often enough and makes cards like Hezekiah's Signet Ring really powerful. (It also stops Confusion from searching for the card in deck)

All in all Confusion isn't the problem it's the confusion and frustration from not knowing how to deal with it.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #16 on:** February 23, 2017, 04:19:45 PM »

I'm curious how would you ever use negate the last card played? You never have the initiative when confusion is played so they get to play a second card which will be the last card. And if you're referring to territory class negates then why wouldn't Covenant of Noah work? Like I said before if I have Son of God in my hand and they named Son of God and I show them my hand they don't need to look through my deck or discard pile because there's only one son of God. I've already accepted it that's why I play with it and everyone else should too.

The Guardian · « **Reply #17 on:** February 23, 2017, 04:48:57 PM »

Cards like Gam's Speech and Faith Among Corruption do not need normal initiative to be triggered therefore you can say "I'm using Gam's Speech" before the opponent plays another enhancement.

Covenant of Noah does not say "Negate last" therefore it defaults to enhancements in play.

The Schaefer · « **Reply #18 on:** February 23, 2017, 04:56:08 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on February 23, 2017, 04:19:45 PM

I'm curious how would you ever use negate the last card played? You never have the initiative when confusion is played so they get to play a second card which will be the last card. And if you're referring to territory class negates then why wouldn't Covenant of Noah work? Like I said before if I have Son of God in my hand and they named Son of God and I show them my hand they don't need to look through my deck or discard pile because there's only one son of God. I've already accepted it that's why I play with it and everyone else should too.

in t2 you can have multiple copies of cards. A great example is naming Panic demon in T2. Since there are large numbers of panic demons that can be in a deck. I think it's 4 of every evil brigade. So you do need to check the hand, deck, and discard. And letting a player verify that they got all the copies of a card, is that players responsibility you as the player can't just say that SOG is in my hand and remove it, the player who played the card has the responsibility of finding all copies of the named card and as such must check or not check the locations themselves.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #19 on:** February 23, 2017, 05:24:17 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on February 23, 2017, 04:48:57 PM

Cards like Gam's Speech and Faith Among Corruption do not need normal initiative to be triggered therefore you can say "I'm using Gam's Speech" before the opponent plays another enhancement.

Covenant of Noah does not say "Negate last" therefore it defaults to enhancements in play.

I am not trying to be a jerk but i am trying to understand. From the REG

General Description
A negate ability takes a previously completed ability and undoes the effect of that ability, and it keeps the
uncompleted activation of an ability from ever completing.

General Description
An interrupt ability temporarily undoes a previously completed ability or set of abilities and suspends them while
activating other abilities on the interrupt card before the suspended abilities reactivate.

now tell me how Covenant of Noah's interrupt ability is any different then Gam's Speech negate? What am I missing?

The Schaefer · « **Reply #20 on:** February 23, 2017, 05:51:00 PM »

Quote from: The Guardian on February 23, 2017, 04:48:57 PM

Cards like Gam's Speech and Faith Among Corruption do not need normal initiative to be triggered therefore you can say "I'm using Gam's Speech" before the opponent plays another enhancement.

Covenant of Noah does not say "Negate last" therefore it defaults to enhancements in play.

Quote from: The Guardian on February 23, 2017, 04:48:57 PM

Cards like Gam's Speech and Faith Among Corruption do not need normal initiative to be triggered therefore you can say "I'm using Gam's Speech" before the opponent plays another enhancement.

Covenant of Noah does not say "Negate last" therefore it defaults to enhancements in play.

The last part of what The Guardian said is what you are missing. Negate last targets the last ability used of that type regardless of its location. Normally any effect that doesn't specify anot her location defaults to play meaning it can only effect cards/abilities in play. That is why Covenant of Noah doesn't work. It defaults to play and Confusion has removed itself from the game so it can't target it. Since Gam's speech is a negate last it doesn't default to play it targets the last ability used of that type regardless of the current location of that card. Make sense?

Jeremystair · « **Reply #21 on:** February 23, 2017, 06:12:38 PM »

well if that's how you want to let confusion play then you need to update the REG because that's not what it says "previously completed ability" it does not say a previously completed ability in play! how can you target a card that is not in the game anymore? or is treated as if not in the game in the first place with a "Negate last"? it's no longer in the game. it's does not make any sense to let one work and not the other.

thejambi · « **Reply #22 on:** February 23, 2017, 07:18:48 PM »

Questions:

Is Confusion ever "in play" (before it removes itself from the game)? Ergo, could it be stopped with Covenant of Noah at that time?

And, the REG states that interrupt and negate abilities target "abilities", not cards. How is that being handled here in the answers?

The Schaefer · « **Reply #23 on:** February 23, 2017, 07:29:38 PM »

Quote from: Jeremystair on February 23, 2017, 06:12:38 PM

well if that's how you want to let confusion play then you need to update the REG because that's not what it says "previously completed ability" it does not say a previously completed ability in play! how can you target a card that is not in the game anymore? or is treated as if not in the game in the first place with a "Negate last"? it's no longer in the game. it's does not make any sense to let one work and not the other.

ALL abilities default to play unless they say otherwise. Negate last is an instance of saying otherwise to some degree. The abilities are what are being targeted by the negates a negate last targets the last ability played of a card type so it doesnt have to be in play, a regular negate defaults to abilities in play since it has nothing to say otherwise. Sorry if you don't like or agree with it but that's how it's been ruled.

Covenant of Noah will never have the chance to negate Cofusion (Cow) since confusion removes itself from the game upon completion and since Covenant of Noah defaults to play and only is able to take effect after ALL of confusion's ability is complete it can never negate it. Gam's Speech can since it is a negate last effect so as long as the last effect was confusion the ability of confusiom can be negated by it.

Jeremystair · « **Reply #24 on:** February 23, 2017, 07:42:11 PM »

I don't think you're hearing what I'm saying I hope you're not trying to make feel bad or quit playing the game because I'm questioning some rules, with your sorry you don't like it comment. What I'm saying is there are too many little tiny intricate rules it's too hard for new people to play the game and explain everything to them that's probably why there aren't that many people that play the game, they get frustrated. Don't get me wrong I like the game it I've been playing it since the beginning it's just that we make rules up that sounds good at the time so we rule that way. And that's okay but somewhere down the line things change and we need to look at them just see what needs to be done if anything. And just because something is ruled that way doesn't mean it's the right way. We have had so many rule changes because someone questioned it. That's fine an interrupt can not interrupt a card that's no longer in the game but in my opinion neither should a "negate last". We need to update the REG because it sounds like we are targeting the ability and not the card

General Description
A negate ability takes a previously completed ability and undoes the effect of that ability, and it keeps the
uncompleted activation of an ability from ever completing.

General Description
An interrupt ability temporarily undoes a previously completed ability or set of abilities and suspends them while
activating other abilities on the interrupt card before the suspended abilities reactivate.

News:

Author Topic: Cloud confusion (Read 3236 times)