Author Topic: Christian Martyr versus Grapes of Wrath (Read 3135 times)

stefferweffer · « **on:** November 10, 2009, 07:01:15 AM »

Hi all,

I will be in a multi-player tournament this weekend and was wondering something. Say that I make a rescue attempt, and my opponent blocks with an EC. Then, because it seems I will win I guess, a different opponent Martyrs my hero that is in battle. Can I now play Grapes of Wrath on the EC in battle in the hopes of making another rescue attempt?

Why or why not?

Thanks.

browarod · « **Reply #1 on:** November 10, 2009, 09:14:46 AM »

The only requirement for Grapes is an evil card in battle, so I don't see why you couldn't use it.

3-Liner And Bags Of Chips · « **Reply #2 on:** November 10, 2009, 11:14:47 AM »

Yeah. I believe you can.

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #3 on:** November 10, 2009, 12:30:22 PM »

I"m not sure about that. When there is no hero in battle, you enter battle resolution, where no doms can be played. I do not know this for sure, but I would say you could not because the battle would end when CM was played.

Master KChief · « **Reply #4 on:** November 10, 2009, 12:33:34 PM »

. you would need an interrupt to avoid going to battle resolution, and of course doms cannot be interrupted.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #5 on:** November 10, 2009, 12:42:27 PM »

Quote from: Cameron the Conqueror on November 10, 2009, 12:30:22 PM

When there is no hero in battle, you enter battle resolution

I'm not sure about this. If you play an enh that discards my hero, then I'm in kinda not in battle, but the battle isn't over. There is an initiative check that shows that it is my initiative. Then there is the chance for me to play a negate of your enhancement. If your enh was CBN, then I couldn't negate it, but the initiative check would still happen. It seems like the same thing would be the case with a dominant.

Assuming all of this, then after the initiative check, and before playing a negate, someone could play a dominant.

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #6 on:** November 10, 2009, 12:46:44 PM »

Just to play devil's advocate against myself

, what about playing you playing CM after your opponent has played AotL? We all know this is a valid play, and if battle resolution begins directly after there is no hero/EC in battle, then this would not work.

Gabe · « **Reply #7 on:** November 10, 2009, 12:51:20 PM »

Yes, you can play Grapes after your Hero is Christian Martyr'd.

A similar scenario that I'm sure we've all participated in:

Rescuer plays AotL to discard the only blocking EC. Blocker plays CM to discard the only Hero in battle and denies the rescue.

Same thing, different cards.

stefferweffer · « **Reply #8 on:** November 10, 2009, 12:52:17 PM »

Thanks for trying to get an official answer on this (and I hope that is forthcoming). I guess I always saw "in battle" as out there in front in the battle resolution area as opposed to in territory. Say it as reversed, and I played AOTL on his EC in battle with me. Does my hero go to my territory while I wait for a Lost Soul to be awarded to me? And are we saying that no one can play Martyr on me (nor can a lost souls be rescued by SOG or Buried) in this case BEFORE I get the lost soul because we're now in "battle resolution"?

Or when an EC is ignored by an in-battle enhancement, is that EC still "in battle", or are they is some "limbo" state where grapes of Wrath cannot target them either?

I guess its just easier for our group to see "in battle" as two EC starting a conflict in the battle area, and the battle continues until one or both come back to their territory, but from what I'm reading here it doesn't sound like its that simple

Thanks again for all your help and explaining of the "battle phase".

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #9 on:** November 10, 2009, 12:53:04 PM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on November 10, 2009, 12:51:20 PM

Yes, you can play Grapes after your Hero is Christian Martyr'd.

A similar scenario that I'm sure we've all participated in:

Rescuer plays AotL to discard the only blocking EC. Blocker plays CM to discard the only Hero in battle and denies the rescue.

Same thing, different cards.

You copier

Master KChief · « **Reply #10 on:** November 10, 2009, 01:03:35 PM »

just because we've played it like that for years doesn't mean its right. wheres the foundation that scenario actually works?

stefferweffer · « **Reply #11 on:** November 10, 2009, 01:37:15 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on November 10, 2009, 01:03:35 PM

just because we've played it like that for years doesn't mean its right. wheres the foundation that scenario actually works?

Sorry, but I'm not sure who/what you're replying to here. Are you suggesting that the abundant practice of playing dominants after the hero plays AOTL on the opposing EC, in order to prevent the rescue, might be illegal according to the rules?

Master KChief · « **Reply #12 on:** November 10, 2009, 02:05:10 PM »

i dont know, im playing devils advocate here. the 'abundant practice' of playing the dominants like so is irrelevant. within what rule structure is it possible to do so?

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #13 on:** November 10, 2009, 04:45:32 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on November 10, 2009, 02:05:10 PM

i dont know, im playing devils advocate here. the 'abundant practice' of playing the dominants like so is irrelevant. within what rule structure is it possible to do so?

I continue to believe that there is an opportunity after the playing of dominants to do further actions "in battle". For instance, after you play AotL on my EC, I can choose to discard Unknown Nation to bring in another defender to continue the battle. I just am not convinced that the battle immediately ends just because one person plays a dominant or CBN enh to remove one side from the battle.

Crashfach2002 · « **Reply #14 on:** November 10, 2009, 05:18:49 PM »

It is the same thing as "Oh no! You killed my defense! HAH, I'm going to use Burial on my only Lost Soul in play!" or "So you beat me huh?!? What Lost Soul are you going to rescue since I'm rescuing it with Son of God!" I never heard anything against this!

Master KChief · « **Reply #15 on:** November 10, 2009, 05:40:26 PM »

again, neither one of you are answering my question. i'd be more apt to believe either one of you if you could merely steer me in the right direction where it says it is ok to do as you describe.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #16 on:** November 10, 2009, 06:08:35 PM »

This is from the 10th Anniversary Rulebook:

Example – Playing Dominants During Battle

You are making a rescue attempt with Jude, a red brigade Hero with abilities of 8/8. Your opponent blocks with Stone Throwers, a crimson brigade Evil Character with abilities of 6/6. You are winning, and your opponent has initiative.

However, you play Angel of the Lord, a dominant (lamb icon card), that allows you to “Discard any Evil Character in play.” You discard Stone Throwers. Your opponent cannot stop this using an enhancement. Your opponent also cannot present a new Evil Character. Jude, who is now unblocked, rescues a Lost Soul. Your opponent could still prevent the rescue by playing his own dominant. Here are some examples of how the other dominants in the starter decks could be used to stop a rescue:

• Christian Martyr (grim reaper icon) – Your opponent could play Christian Martyr to discard Jude . If only one Hero is in battle, then playing Christian Martyr is a successful block.

• Burial (grim reaper icon) – If Jude has access to only one Lost Soul, your opponent could play Burial to discard the Lost Soul. Now Jude is in a battle challenge because there is no available Lost Soul for Jude to rescue.

• Son of God (lamb icon) – If Jude has access to only one Lost Soul, your opponent could play Son of God to rescue it. Now Jude is in a battle challenge because there is no available Lost Soul for Jude to rescue.

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #17 on:** November 10, 2009, 06:13:00 PM »

That works for me. Gotta love how the simple rulebook can solve big problems.

SirNobody · « **Reply #18 on:** November 10, 2009, 06:40:22 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: Cameron the Conqueror on November 10, 2009, 12:30:22 PM

When there is no hero in battle, you enter battle resolution,

That is incorrect.

Battle Resolution begins when both players agree that they are done playing cards in battle. The state of battle has nothing to do with starting battle resolution. The state of battle just limits your options of what you can do before starting battle resolution.

The following are ways a player might indicate that they are done playing cards in battle: passing initiative immediately after your opponent passed initiative (in mutual destruction or stalemate situation), moving your character to the discard pile (if it lost the battle by the numbers), handing a redeemed soul to your opponent, and of course some sort of verbal recognition.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

stefferweffer · « **Reply #19 on:** November 10, 2009, 06:41:49 PM »

So I CAN play Grapes of Wrath on the EC that my opponent blocked me with, even after I have been Martyred, right? Just want to make sure before I try this and someone says "No."

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #20 on:** November 10, 2009, 06:42:39 PM »

News:

Author Topic: Christian Martyr versus Grapes of Wrath (Read 3135 times)

browarod