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Just wondering I was playing a multi-player type 2 game yesterday and I used a "choose the blocker" obedience of Noah after a blocker was presented.

One of playgroup members said it does grant SI.

1. Is it true that if a choose the blocker (obedience of Noah) or choose the rescuer (Sarah's Jealousy) ability is used does it grant SI to the opposing side? 

 2. Is there somewhere in the REG that states about question #1? or how choose the rescuer/blocker after a blocker \ rescuer is presented it does not Grant SI?

I know that if a choose the blocker ability is used before a blocker is presented it is CBI.

I believe the answer is actually no, it does not grant SI for the reason that you are not really removing the last character in battle but rather replacing it.

In the Glossary of Terms, SI is defined and states that it only triggers if you would be left with no character in battle, but in the case of CtB/CtR, your opponent had a character, just perhaps not the original one they started with.

It used to be that it did grant SI but I think that was before it was even called "Special Initiative"and was more like "assumed initiative."

So I guess I was wrong. It happens sometimes. Now that I think about how the ability works it does make sense to me.

Quote from: Redoubter on November 11, 2014, 09:25:24 PM

Koala is koalified to answer this question, as he is correct.  A Choose Opponent ability played after a blocker has been presented is a combination Withdraw  and Present.  Both complete before SI could be granted, but so long as there will be a character left after it completes, SI is not granted.

He is also correct it had been different years ago, but once SI was defined clearly, that changed and you no longer get it for CT- abilities.

How does this differ from:

Quote from: Redoubter on November 01, 2014, 11:35:47 PM

These are tougher for sure, but I would say that they do grant SI.  The reason is that they are not a Choose the Rescuer ability, which allows you to choose who enters after they withdraw.  Instead, it is a combination Withdraw with a Present.

The Withdraw, if it removes all characters from one side, should grant SI.

Taken out of context that looks odd, yes.  But you did not specify the cards I was talking about in the other thread, which were NOT Choose Opponent abilities, because the controller did not choose the character replacing in battle.  Those cards, Outburst of Anger and Temptation, are simply not CT- abilities, because the player controlling the heroes chooses, and Choose Opponent requires that the target come from the hand of the player using the ability or a territory by default, meaning they choose.

I was also speaking to the fact that you can have those abilities result in no hero in battle, which does grant SI.  In the cases here, it was assumed another character was added to battle, which does not grant SI.

Nothing I said in the threads quoted are inconsistent at all when given context.

That's fine, and I did not mean to insinuate you said anything intentionally misleading, just that the context was critical to understand my separate points.  I'm sorry if it came off that way.

A CT- ability is indeed a combination Withdraw-Present in the effects, but it is its own ability in that CT- abilities always allow the controller of the ability to choose the target of the Present.  This is different from a few of the Withdraw abilities that have a Present component attached to them, which specify it is done in that order and that the Present target is chosen by the other player (though the 'source' is still the card with the ability for protection/etc.).

Hopefully that makes more sense, it's a more complex issue from a rulings standpoint.

No, I really don't see the difference so I'm just going to have to go with "because that's the way it is".

This is simply not one of those times, where it 'is the way it is,' and that sort of hand-waving not accurately reflect the fact that we have a consistent rule and ruling here.

As I've explained, a Choose Opponent ability is one that allows the controller to choose the rescuer or blocker their opponent uses.  It withdraws the current characters on that side and, at the same time, allows the controller to choose the character that will be presented.  Both targets are done instantaneously and withdrawn/presented accordingly.  While Withdraw and Present are components, a Choose Opponent ability defines the exact manner this is done and that the controller of the ability chooses the target of the present.  It also specifies that the Present cannot happen if the Withdraw leaves any characters on that side, which is simply not how it would be handled if Withdraw and Present were the only components.

This is not the same as a card that first withdraws, and then allows the other player to choose the character for the present.  Characters are targeted differently in this case, and at different times, as listed on the card and independently for each ability.

So, Choose Opponent is an ability that though it uses Withdraw and Present does so in such a way that it is not simply read as "Withdraw.  Present."  Therefore, these cases are different in how they are handled.

Teaching a close family member a few decades removed from any math how to understand statistics is stressful.  This is simple by comparison, no worries

And I am glad you clarified, as I did misinterpret your response

So basically
 Choose The Rescuer and Choose The Blocker Cannot Be Interrupted?

No, that's not true.  If you play a Choose the Blocker ability BEFORE a blocker has been presented (i.e. Ehud), then that ability is, per the definition of Choose Opponent, CBI.  However, if a player uses a Choose Opponent ability, then the player who now finds themselves with a different character than they started with is free to play enhancements on them as normal, and can also play something to negate the Choose Opponent, which would bring the withdrawn characters back in.