Author Topic: Changes to Decrease Rules (Read 7160 times)

Master KChief · « **Reply #25 on:** August 18, 2011, 09:03:34 PM »

is there? i know thats the ruling for mtg, but i dont believe redemption has one...

Aelec Enitnel · « **Reply #26 on:** August 19, 2011, 09:49:00 AM »

Now I have to ask, can weapons boost character's numbers for the purpose of decrease abilities? Same with power enhancements?
Like, a 2/2 hero with 0/2 Buckler being decreased 0/3.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #27 on:** August 19, 2011, 09:52:59 AM »

I'm pretty sure not.

Bryon · « **Reply #28 on:** August 19, 2011, 10:05:50 AM »

Quote from: Gabe on August 15, 2011, 12:31:58 PM

Those are legit questions and something the elders probably still need to talk through just to ensure we are ruling it the same. My assumption is that a characters ability has to complete once they enter battle, then they will be discarded if their toughness is */0 or less.

This is correct. I answered that exact question at nationals (after I explained what the new rule would be). The "check" for 0 toughness happens after special abilities complete.

Quote from: Aelec Enitnel on August 19, 2011, 09:49:00 AM

Now I have to ask, can weapons boost character's numbers for the purpose of decrease abilities? Same with power enhancements?
Like, a 2/2 hero with 0/2 Buckler being decreased 0/3.

No.

0/2 Buckler · « **Reply #29 on:** August 19, 2011, 10:09:26 AM »

Quote from: Aelec Enitnel on August 19, 2011, 09:49:00 AM

Now I have to ask, can weapons boost character's numbers for the purpose of decrease abilities? Same with power enhancements?
Like, a 2/2 hero with 0/2 Buckler being decreased 0/3.

Like the use of the mighty 0/2 Buckler there

But I was gonna ask the same question, can we get an offial certain answer on this?

Professoralstad · « **Reply #30 on:** August 19, 2011, 10:21:42 AM »

Only in battle. In territory, weapons' numbers have no effect.

Ken4Christ4ever · « **Reply #31 on:** August 19, 2011, 10:23:13 AM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on August 19, 2011, 10:21:42 AM

Only in battle. In territory, weapons' numbers have no effect.

Wait, so if a character has numbered enhancements on him in battle, they count toward his numbers? Thaddeus just got weaker, too!

Professoralstad · « **Reply #32 on:** August 19, 2011, 10:26:08 AM »

They don't count toward the characters numbers for Thaddeus/Widow, etc., but I'm fairly certain that the rule remains that enhancements count for decrease abilities, such that a 3/3 Hero who played a 2/2 enhancement wouldn't be discarded by ignorance. I could be wrong though.

Ken4Christ4ever · « **Reply #33 on:** August 19, 2011, 10:29:01 AM »

It would seem to make sense that they either always would or always wouldn't count. Having them count sometimes and not others is odd. In the past, it has never mattered if they counted for the characters in battle, since decrease didn't discard you in battle, so I wouldn't think there would have been a rule for whether enhancements counted for decrease abilities.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #34 on:** August 19, 2011, 10:52:09 AM »

Can I ask why this decision was made? It seems like it's a relatively drastic change to get used to, and just really overcomplicates things.

Gabe · « **Reply #35 on:** August 19, 2011, 10:58:43 AM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on August 19, 2011, 10:52:09 AM

Can I ask why this decision was made? It seems like it's a relatively drastic change to get used to, and just really overcomplicates things.

You really feel that having characters with a toughness of 0 or less continue to live, but only during one specific phase of the game, is less complicated than always discarding a character when their toughness is 0 or less?

Bryon · « **Reply #36 on:** August 19, 2011, 10:58:59 AM »

The change was made for at least 2 reasons:

1. It eliminated an exception to the rule that characters decreased to /0 or less are discarded immediately. The exception for the battle phase was to allow a player to play an increase card in response to a card like Hunger which, when it released, was devastating. The game has progressed to the point where there are enough interrrupts that this exception is no longer needed.

2. It allows a bunch of older cards to be battle winners, which adds variety to deck building. Before the rule, King Omri was lame. Now, he's great. This rule gives similar power to cards like Ignorance, Hunger, etc.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #37 on:** August 19, 2011, 11:00:37 AM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on August 19, 2011, 10:52:09 AM

It seems like it's a relatively drastic change to get used to, and just really overcomplicates things.

Actually I think it simplifies things. Before we had a rule (discard characters that have defense of 0) with an exception (unless they are in battle). This caused some cards (Hunger, etc.) to be ruled in a way that went against the intuitive reading of the card.

Now we have a rule (discard characters that have a defense of 0) without exceptions, and cards like Hunger work the way they seem like they should. That's simpler. As for whether enhs numbers count toward the characters in battle (for the decrease rule, or getting around Thad's protection) or out of battle (for the decrease rule, or ignoring with Widow) I also think it would be simplest for them to either always count, or always not count.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #38 on:** August 19, 2011, 11:23:28 AM »

Quote from: Gabe on August 19, 2011, 10:58:43 AM

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on August 19, 2011, 10:52:09 AM
Can I ask why this decision was made? It seems like it's a relatively drastic change to get used to, and just really overcomplicates things.

You really feel that having characters with a toughness of 0 or less continue to live, but only during one specific phase of the game, is less complicated than always discarding a character when their toughness is 0 or less?

Well, I should have possibly elaborated more, because by itself, I agree that it does simplify things. The main thing is in conjunction with the new rule that allows you to negate/discard cards that are removing you from battle. Unless I'm misunderstanding that rule (and it's entirely possible that I am), this means that I could use Lying Unto God to discard Plagued with Diseases, right? I don't know, that's just confusing to me. This is really more of my dislike of THAT particular change than the change to the decrease rules though.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #39 on:** August 19, 2011, 11:39:35 AM »

that example doesn't even make sense.

PwD targets heroes, and LuG is evil.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #40 on:** August 19, 2011, 11:41:53 AM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on August 19, 2011, 11:39:35 AM

that example doesn't even make sense.

PwD targets heroes, and LuG is evil.

Oops. >_>

You get my meaning though.

Bryon · « **Reply #41 on:** August 19, 2011, 12:10:04 PM »

I get what you mean. It seems odd that you could block with a 1/3 Pharisee while Crown of Thorns is active, and then play Lying Unto God to negate and discard Crown of Thorns so that your Pharisees don't immediately die.

That does feel a little odd, but I think it is mainly because we've played without that rule for so long. Hopefully it will feel more natural after a while.

Our goal is a simpler ruleset with fewer exceptions and more consistency.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #42 on:** August 19, 2011, 12:13:08 PM »

Yeah. The "takes some getting used to" thing is what bothers me the most I guess. I -do- understand why the change in ruling is necessary, since you guys are trying to promote consistency after years of Redemption having basically no cornerstone or real foundation on subtle rulings (to the point where the definition of "play" was unclear for years). However, having two large rulings like that that cause situations like the one you mentioned does feel rather awkward, but I suppose it's a necessary push.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #43 on:** August 19, 2011, 12:15:35 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on August 19, 2011, 12:10:04 PM

I get what you mean. It seems odd that you could block with a 1/3 Pharisee while Crown of Thorns is active, and then play Lying Unto God to negate and discard Crown of Thorns so that your Pharisees don't immediately die.

That does feel a little odd, but I think it is mainly because we've played without that rule for so long. Hopefully it will feel more natural after a while.

There is precedent for negating cards outside of battle that are causing you to lose:

I've negated Herod's Dungeon while its trying to capture me with Trumpet and Sword many times.

0/2 Buckler · « **Reply #44 on:** August 19, 2011, 05:25:11 PM »

Quote from: Ken4Christ4ever on August 19, 2011, 10:29:01 AM

It would seem to make sense that they either always would or always wouldn't count. Having them count sometimes and not others is odd. In the past, it has never mattered if they counted for the characters in battle, since decrease didn't discard you in battle, so I wouldn't think there would have been a rule for whether enhancements counted for decrease abilities.

Does that mean there is no official ruling for this yet?

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #45 on:** August 19, 2011, 05:37:30 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on August 19, 2011, 10:26:08 AM

They don't count toward the characters numbers for Thaddeus/Widow, etc., but I'm fairly certain that the rule remains that enhancements count for decrease abilities, such that a 3/3 Hero who played a 2/2 enhancement wouldn't be discarded by ignorance. I could be wrong though.

You have to be wrong. If you aren't, Thad's ruling is inconsistant.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #46 on:** August 19, 2011, 05:45:13 PM »

Also, playing Samson's Sacrifice on a 1/1 hero. Will it blend... I mean... will it die? That is the question.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #47 on:** August 20, 2011, 01:04:02 AM »

it is a battle winner, but you can interrupt it.

However, if you are dying because King Omri just triggered Gates of Samaria, you need a "Negate evil card" or "negate fort" card. ITB wont cut it then.

Carl deuty · « **Reply #48 on:** August 20, 2011, 12:33:36 PM »

Brown is the bomb, Israelite Kings for life. Gates of Samaria wins mvp of the new set.

lightningninja · « **Reply #49 on:** August 20, 2011, 04:19:29 PM »

Quote from: Carl deuty on August 20, 2011, 12:33:36 PM

Brown is the bomb, Israelite Kings for life. Gates of Samaria wins mvp of the new set.

No way, ahimalek.

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Author Topic: Changes to Decrease Rules (Read 7160 times)

0/2 Buckler

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy

Lamborghini_diablo

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy

Lamborghini_diablo

0/2 Buckler

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo