Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Gabe on August 15, 2011, 12:09:56 AM
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When a special ability reduces a character to */0 or less, the character is immediately discarded (including during battle). Such special abilities create losing by removal. Previously characters were not discarded until the end of the battle phase.
This change makes cards like Hunger work the way many players already interpreted them. It also expands a seldom used ability providing more diversity to the game.
Please visit this post (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/redemption-official-rules/rule-changesclarifications-for-2011-2012-tournament-season/msg434385/#new) to see all the changes and clarifications for the 2011-2012 tournament season.
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Crown of Thorns active.
I block with a 3/2 EC from hand and I dont get a chance to play anything before Im discarded?
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You could play a card that negates the card removing you from battle. So in this case you could play Lying Unto God, or any other Artifact killer based upon the color of the character.
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You could interrupt the battle with Achan's sin as of now if I understand correctly.
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I think that new ITB rule only applies to cards in battle, not all cards effecting the battle.
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The example was Magic Charms, which doesn't need to be in battle to be used, so I extrapolated that it didn't matter. I guess we will see in the clarification post.
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In Gabe's original post it said it would interrupt a Magic Charms on a Magician IN BATTLE.
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This is super sweet. I assume protect from discard will protect from discard by decrease, right?
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1. @ BB, it always did.
2. It seems to me like the "clarifying text" status is being removed from certain cards that actually say "If defense becomes zero or less, Discard." I could be interpreting this incorrectly, but I don't believe putting Pharisees into battle with Crown of Thorns active would immediately Discard them.
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I could be interpreting this incorrectly, but I don't believe putting Pharisees into battle with Crown of Thorns active would immediately Discard them.
This seems pretty cut and dry here:
When a special ability reduces a character to */0 or less, the character is immediately discarded (including during battle).
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Also, this just made trembling demon + crowns combos a whole lot harder.
Wandering Spirit would pull TD out, but he goes to your territory first, and dies immediately before he can be banded in.
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Ok elders thank you. I just got another 7 or so battle winners to tide me over until the new set.
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Just to check, if my opponent has Crown of Thorns active and I block with Uzzah from hand, I can still use Uzzah's ability, yes?
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Also, this just made trembling demon + crowns combos a whole lot harder.
Wandering Spirit would pull TD out, but he goes to your territory first, and dies immediately before he can be banded in.
But the whole process of revealing bottom card - putting it in territory - adding to battle is all part of WS' ability. Can a character die by decrease during the carrying-out of a special ability that has not resolved yet?
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Those are legit questions and something the elders probably still need to talk through just to ensure we are ruling it the same. My assumption is that a characters ability has to complete once they enter battle, then they will be discarded if their toughness is */0 or less. Feel free to rule that way today and I'll get back to you once we've had a chance to talk it through in more detail.
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REG
Ongoing Abilities > Increase or Decrease Abilities
Clarifications
Abilities worded "worth X/X if..." are considered increase or decrease abilities.
The phrase "if result is */0 or less, discard Hero [or Evil Character]" on increase or decrease abilities cards is a clarification reminding players of the game rule that discards such heroes, not a discard special ability.
new REG needs fix
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new REG needs fix
That's true of almost all the changes/clarifications I announced last night.
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Those are legit questions and something the elders probably still need to talk through just to ensure we are ruling it the same. My assumption is that a characters ability has to complete once they enter battle, then they will be discarded if their toughness is */0 or less. Feel free to rule that way today and I'll get back to you once we've had a chance to talk it through in more detail.
I agree with Gabe's assumption. AFAIK, no game action or trigger can take place during the completion of an active special ability.
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I agree with ProfA.
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So WS/TD/Crown of Thorns still works. Or, is as easy as it used to be.
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I agree with RTSmaniac.
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Sooo...a decrease is BOTH an ongoing AND instant ability. Bravo. :P
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This is awesome. I'm so happy about this ruling, finally a decrease deck could become popular...
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Is there some general rule about infinite loops? If not, there should be.
It would be pointless but if you block with Wandering Spirit, use Gates of Hell to reveal and place a low number demon in territory with Crown of Thorns active, then it is placed under deck and you repeat.
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you should choose a number and declare that many cycles.
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is there? i know thats the ruling for mtg, but i dont believe redemption has one...
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Now I have to ask, can weapons boost character's numbers for the purpose of decrease abilities? Same with power enhancements?
Like, a 2/2 hero with 0/2 Buckler being decreased 0/3.
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I'm pretty sure not.
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Those are legit questions and something the elders probably still need to talk through just to ensure we are ruling it the same. My assumption is that a characters ability has to complete once they enter battle, then they will be discarded if their toughness is */0 or less.
This is correct. I answered that exact question at nationals (after I explained what the new rule would be). The "check" for 0 toughness happens after special abilities complete.
Now I have to ask, can weapons boost character's numbers for the purpose of decrease abilities? Same with power enhancements?
Like, a 2/2 hero with 0/2 Buckler being decreased 0/3.
No.
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Now I have to ask, can weapons boost character's numbers for the purpose of decrease abilities? Same with power enhancements?
Like, a 2/2 hero with 0/2 Buckler being decreased 0/3.
Like the use of the mighty 0/2 Buckler there :)
But I was gonna ask the same question, can we get an offial certain answer on this?
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Only in battle. In territory, weapons' numbers have no effect.
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Only in battle. In territory, weapons' numbers have no effect.
Wait, so if a character has numbered enhancements on him in battle, they count toward his numbers? Thaddeus just got weaker, too!
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They don't count toward the characters numbers for Thaddeus/Widow, etc., but I'm fairly certain that the rule remains that enhancements count for decrease abilities, such that a 3/3 Hero who played a 2/2 enhancement wouldn't be discarded by ignorance. I could be wrong though.
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It would seem to make sense that they either always would or always wouldn't count. Having them count sometimes and not others is odd. In the past, it has never mattered if they counted for the characters in battle, since decrease didn't discard you in battle, so I wouldn't think there would have been a rule for whether enhancements counted for decrease abilities.
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Can I ask why this decision was made? It seems like it's a relatively drastic change to get used to, and just really overcomplicates things.
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Can I ask why this decision was made? It seems like it's a relatively drastic change to get used to, and just really overcomplicates things.
You really feel that having characters with a toughness of 0 or less continue to live, but only during one specific phase of the game, is less complicated than always discarding a character when their toughness is 0 or less?
:miss:
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The change was made for at least 2 reasons:
1. It eliminated an exception to the rule that characters decreased to /0 or less are discarded immediately. The exception for the battle phase was to allow a player to play an increase card in response to a card like Hunger which, when it released, was devastating. The game has progressed to the point where there are enough interrrupts that this exception is no longer needed.
2. It allows a bunch of older cards to be battle winners, which adds variety to deck building. Before the rule, King Omri was lame. Now, he's great. This rule gives similar power to cards like Ignorance, Hunger, etc.
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It seems like it's a relatively drastic change to get used to, and just really overcomplicates things.
Actually I think it simplifies things. Before we had a rule (discard characters that have defense of 0) with an exception (unless they are in battle). This caused some cards (Hunger, etc.) to be ruled in a way that went against the intuitive reading of the card.
Now we have a rule (discard characters that have a defense of 0) without exceptions, and cards like Hunger work the way they seem like they should. That's simpler. As for whether enhs numbers count toward the characters in battle (for the decrease rule, or getting around Thad's protection) or out of battle (for the decrease rule, or ignoring with Widow) I also think it would be simplest for them to either always count, or always not count.
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Can I ask why this decision was made? It seems like it's a relatively drastic change to get used to, and just really overcomplicates things.
You really feel that having characters with a toughness of 0 or less continue to live, but only during one specific phase of the game, is less complicated than always discarding a character when their toughness is 0 or less?
:miss:
Well, I should have possibly elaborated more, because by itself, I agree that it does simplify things. The main thing is in conjunction with the new rule that allows you to negate/discard cards that are removing you from battle. Unless I'm misunderstanding that rule (and it's entirely possible that I am), this means that I could use Lying Unto God to discard Plagued with Diseases, right? I don't know, that's just confusing to me. This is really more of my dislike of THAT particular change than the change to the decrease rules though.
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that example doesn't even make sense. :P
PwD targets heroes, and LuG is evil. ;)
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that example doesn't even make sense. :P
PwD targets heroes, and LuG is evil. ;)
Oops. >_>
You get my meaning though.
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I get what you mean. It seems odd that you could block with a 1/3 Pharisee while Crown of Thorns is active, and then play Lying Unto God to negate and discard Crown of Thorns so that your Pharisees don't immediately die.
That does feel a little odd, but I think it is mainly because we've played without that rule for so long. Hopefully it will feel more natural after a while.
Our goal is a simpler ruleset with fewer exceptions and more consistency.
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Yeah. The "takes some getting used to" thing is what bothers me the most I guess. I -do- understand why the change in ruling is necessary, since you guys are trying to promote consistency after years of Redemption having basically no cornerstone or real foundation on subtle rulings (to the point where the definition of "play" was unclear for years). However, having two large rulings like that that cause situations like the one you mentioned does feel rather awkward, but I suppose it's a necessary push.
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I get what you mean. It seems odd that you could block with a 1/3 Pharisee while Crown of Thorns is active, and then play Lying Unto God to negate and discard Crown of Thorns so that your Pharisees don't immediately die.
That does feel a little odd, but I think it is mainly because we've played without that rule for so long. Hopefully it will feel more natural after a while.
There is precedent for negating cards outside of battle that are causing you to lose:
I've negated Herod's Dungeon while its trying to capture me with Trumpet and Sword many times.
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It would seem to make sense that they either always would or always wouldn't count. Having them count sometimes and not others is odd. In the past, it has never mattered if they counted for the characters in battle, since decrease didn't discard you in battle, so I wouldn't think there would have been a rule for whether enhancements counted for decrease abilities.
Does that mean there is no official ruling for this yet? ???
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They don't count toward the characters numbers for Thaddeus/Widow, etc., but I'm fairly certain that the rule remains that enhancements count for decrease abilities, such that a 3/3 Hero who played a 2/2 enhancement wouldn't be discarded by ignorance. I could be wrong though.
You have to be wrong. If you aren't, Thad's ruling is inconsistant.
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Also, playing Samson's Sacrifice on a 1/1 hero. Will it blend... I mean... will it die? That is the question.
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it is a battle winner, but you can interrupt it.
However, if you are dying because King Omri just triggered Gates of Samaria, you need a "Negate evil card" or "negate fort" card. ITB wont cut it then.
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Brown is the bomb, Israelite Kings for life. Gates of Samaria wins mvp of the new set.
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Brown is the bomb, Israelite Kings for life. Gates of Samaria wins mvp of the new set.
No way, ahimalek.
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This came up in a game this week again... Since I don't see anywhere that it has been ruled decisively, do enhancements on characters count toward their numbers for the decrease abilities?
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No they do not Ken. But permanent increases do, like Meditation.
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I fully support that ruling. :) If anyone else could confirm it, simply due to the uncertainty earlier in the thread, that would be great!
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My understanding is that numbers from enhancements do NOT count toward the character's stats for either ignoring (ie. defending against Zeb) or protecting from discard due to decrease.
So a 5/5 EC who had played a 2/2 EE would NOT be ignored by Zebulun if his owner had 6 cards in hand. Similarly, a 5/5 GC who had played a 2/2 GE WOULD STILL be discarded if the defender played Hunger to decrease him 6/6.
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I agree with Prof Underwood and lightningninja
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Thank you!
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however it makes a good argument that enhancements should count toward characters stats. I mean whats an enhancement for anyways if not to enhance the character?
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however it makes a good argument that enhancements should count toward characters stats. I mean whats an enhancement for anyways if not to enhance the character?
The way I see if, if I have a 12/12 hero and a 1/1 hero banded together in battle, my TOTAL number is 13/13.
Opponent plays Hunger, I'm now 6/6 and -5/-5, so my total number is still 1/1, but that doesn't stop my small hero from dying.
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however it makes a good argument that enhancements should count toward characters stats. I mean whats an enhancement for anyways if not to enhance the character?
The way I see if, if I have a 12/12 hero and a 1/1 hero banded together in battle, my TOTAL number is 13/13.
Opponent plays Hunger, I'm now 6/6 and -5/-5, so my total number is still 1/1, but that doesn't stop my small hero from dying.
But if you immediately discard your "dead" hero, under the new rule you'd be 6/6 instead of 1/1, since your -5/-5 hero is no longer in battle.
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however it makes a good argument that enhancements should count toward characters stats. I mean whats an enhancement for anyways if not to enhance the character?
The way I see if, if I have a 12/12 hero and a 1/1 hero banded together in battle, my TOTAL number is 13/13.
Opponent plays Hunger, I'm now 6/6 and -5/-5, so my total number is still 1/1, but that doesn't stop my small hero from dying.
But if you immediately discard your "dead" hero, under the new rule you'd be 6/6 instead of 1/1, since your -5/-5 hero is no longer in battle.
....So? Initiative based on numbers is fluid, it changes often like anytime characters enter/leave battle and when numbers get increased/decreased (like with Hunger) as well as with general numbers calculated in from enhancement abilities.
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I'm not complaining. I think it's a neat little side effect that on some occasions losing your decreased character immediately could be more beneficial than keeping them in play.
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hate to dig up dirt and necropost but how does the new decrease ruling apply in the case of protect forts and ecs in territory.
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If something protects from discard, the protected item can't be discarded. For instance, Phars/Sadds can't die from CoT in territory with HPP in play. However, when they enter battle, they will die. However, if something only protects from discard abilities, then they can be discarded. (e.g. Abithar)
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adding on to that:
If it protects characters from opponents, they can't even be targeted for a decrease.
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If something protects from discard, the protected item can't be discarded. For instance, Phars/Sadds can't die from CoT in territory with HPP in play. However, when they enter battle, they will die. However, if something only protects from discard abilities, then they can be discarded. (e.g. Abithar)
....So the pharisee with HPP in play and Crown o thorns in play is fine in territory and then 0/0 in battle--then is he Instantly discarded now in battle or is he waiting to die until end o battle phase?
Thanks!
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Instantly, however, his ability still activates.
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Instantly, however, his ability still activates.
Checking for numbers really should be added to the "Order of Abilities" documentation. It sounds like it should be at the end? Or after character abilities and before weapon, placed, band and CTB/CTR??
CARDS WITH MULTIPLE SPECIAL ABILITIES
When a single card has more than one special ability (including gained abilities), and an order is not specified, perform the abilities in this order:
1. First, complete all printed special abilities in the order written on the card EXCEPT those that add a character to the battle.
2. Then complete all gained abilities (gained in set-aside or on previous turn, etc.), EXCEPT those that add a character to the battle.
3. Then, complete all weapon abilities.
4. Then, complete banding abilities.
5. Last, complete choose blocker abilities.
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Or, do you check for 0 toughness after all abilities complete, just like how you wait to check initiative after all special abilities complete.
All abilities complete.
Discard all characters with zero toughness.
Initative check.
Does that work?
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Or, do you check for 0 toughness after all abilities complete, just like how you wait to check initiative after all special abilities complete.
All abilities complete.
Discard all characters with zero toughness.
Initative check.
Does that work?
Works for me and is what I'd prefer. Because the decrease rule is new, Kittens comment made me concerned.
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ok so if we go with byrons suggestion were saying gates of samaria does target