Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Praeceps on June 12, 2013, 07:28:17 PM
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My Michael is holding angels sword. He gets CM'd. He goes to Chamber. Does the weapon follow him to chamber and then to top of deck or is it discarded?
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I believe it does, but I have been known to be wrong on occasion.
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From my understanding of this, all placed enhancements follow the character, for example I go forward with Isiah who has call on. Opponent blocks and then plays grapes. Isiah and call get shuffled into deck. I could be totally wrong but this is how I have been playing it.
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Placed enhancements (and weapons) follow characters everywhere except capture.
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Alright, thanks guys
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Just thought of something that would be insanely powerful, What if Angel of the Lord was discarded via egyptian? I mean it is an angel, if not a character. I do not see any reason why it wouldn't go on top, but....
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Just thought of something that would be insanely powerful, What if Angel of the Lord was discarded via egyptian? I mean it is an angel, if not a character. I do not see any reason why it wouldn't go on top, but....
Chamber of Angels targets the Angel identifier, not "Angel" in card titles. Sorry. ;)
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I kind of figured but it was worth a try. ;D
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Weapons can be held outside of battle. During battle they are treated just like any other enhancement. That means the weapon would not follow during battle. After battle you can choose to have a warrior retain a weapon again.
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Weapons can be held outside of battle. During battle they are treated just like any other enhancement. That means the weapon would not follow during battle. After battle you can choose to have a warrior retain a weapon again.
This confuses because according to the REG:
Weapon-class Enhancement
This is a special kind of enhancement marked by a shield icon on the left side of the card. Weapon-
class enhancements may be held by warrior-class characters outside of battle, and may be placed
on a warrior-class character during a player’s preparation or discard phases. The special ability
on a weapon-class enhancement only activates in battle. Weapons follow the same rules as placed
cards by following their bearers to any location in which they are moved. Weapon-class
enhancements can also be played during battle using the rules of initiative.
Following battle resolution, when enhancements are normally discarded, a warrior-class
character’s controller may decide to keep one weapon-class enhancement on the warrior-class
character.
Emphasis mine, seems to me the weapon would follow Michael. Is the REG incorrect or out of date?
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I believe that REG entry is correct. I have always ruled that a weapon on an Angel would follow to Chamber, and continue following to top of deck.
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This confuses because according to the REG:
Weapon-class Enhancement
...Weapons follow the same rules as placed cards by following their bearers to any location in which they are moved.
It's my understanding that what you've bolded explains what happens to weapons outside of battle, when they are being "held" or treated as "placed".
During battle weapons are treated like all other enhancements. They are not "held" during battle, only outside of battle. The following quotes are also from the REG and explain this.
Weapon class enhancements may be held by warrior-class characters outside of battle, and may be placed on a warrior-class character during a player’s preparation or discard phases.
This clearly says that they are only held outside of battle.
Following battle resolution, when enhancements are normally discarded, a warrior-class character’s controller may decide to keep one weapon-class enhancement on the warrior-class character.
This indicates how a regular enhancement is then held again after battle.
The rules regarding weapons in the 10th anniversary rule book are somewhat outdated, but say the following.
If a warrior is discarded or captured, or returned to hand, all weapon cards on the character are discarded.
This statement assumes only one character in battle, but clarifies that weapons are being treated just like any other enhancement during the battle phase. Following this statement is the one exception - converted characters are allowed to keep a weapon.
Weapons may not be exchanged between characters and may only be moved to another character in battle if the holder of the weapon is defeated and another warrior-class character is in battle and able to hold the weapon.
This last statement also indicates that weapons follow the same rules are any regular enhancement played in battle.
Unfortunately the REG definition of hold and/or place do not clearly address the differences between hold abilities on weapons and other types of cards. While the elders have a discussion or two on the subject, it's complicated and has never come to resolution. The entries I quoted above are based on the original rules formed for weapons and the REG entry which is based on the insert explaining weapons found in Kings packs.
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So how should Host's rule until there is an elder consensus, we currently have an elder on each side. Is it up to the host's to decide based on which side of the fence they fall on?
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Gabe,
Are you suggesting that weapons on characters in battle do not follow holder being removed from battle? That goes against years of rulings that shuffle, return to territory, etc send the weapon with the character.
A post you made in a topic I started a couple months back seemed to indicate you believe weapons follow holders from battle.
The character has to go first or the other cards can't follow. Beyond that I would allow the player to choose which of the placed/held cards are kept and which are discarded.
Kirk
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A post you made in a topic I started a couple months back seemed to indicate you believe weapons follow holders from battle.
The character has to go first or the other cards can't follow. Beyond that I would allow the player to choose which of the placed/held cards are kept and which are discarded.
Not really, because during battle weapons aren't considered being held (see second quote in Gabe's most recent post). As such, there is no disagreement between that post and Gabe's comments thus far in this thread.
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A post you made in a topic I started a couple months back seemed to indicate you believe weapons follow holders from battle.
The character has to go first or the other cards can't follow. Beyond that I would allow the player to choose which of the placed/held cards are kept and which are discarded.
Not really, because during battle weapons aren't considered being held (see second quote in Gabe's most recent post). As such, there is no disagreement between that post and Gabe's comments thus far in this thread.
In the context of Gabe's post in the thread I linked to I believe it does go against his post in this thread. The thread in question asked about Ahimelek returning Goliath + Foreign Sword and/or Hating the Light to hand.
Kirk
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If a weapon is the same as any other enhancement in battle and I can choose to have a character retain it after battle then y can't I choose to pass it to someone else.
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In the context of Gabe's post in the thread I linked to I believe it does go against his post in this thread. The thread in question asked about Ahimelek returning Goliath + Foreign Sword and/or Hating the Light to hand.
It was only recently when I was reading the rules for weapon class enhancements in the REG, 10th Anniversary Rule Book and Kings insert that I became aware I had been playing it wrong. My ruling on that thread was based on the faulty understanding that weapons are always held, even during battle.
If a weapon is the same as any other enhancement in battle and I can choose to have a character retain it after battle then y can't I choose to pass it to someone else.
Because the rules say you can't. I believe the exact statement can be found in the 10th Anniversary rulebook page 35.
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Obviously I have been playing it wrong as well. I will begin another discussion on the other side of the board so all the elders can say what they understand the ruling is, and so we can come to a concensus on what it should be.