Author Topic: Chaldeans (Read 4262 times)

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #25 on:** January 11, 2012, 07:53:56 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on January 11, 2012, 07:50:13 PM

It's back to my base complaint about the elder system: elders are too quick to set a precedent without thinking about all the implications, and too slow to correct errors. There can be no argument that the "current ruling" is either incorrect or overturns a core rule, so why wasn't it stricken down as easily as established?

Because you haven't give it a chance to possibly be stricken down. I'll understand your complaint if a couple Elders come in here and defense the ruling as-is, but right now, this is the first time this particular scenario is being looked at closely; give it a bit before you get frustrated.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #26 on:** January 11, 2012, 08:05:09 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on January 11, 2012, 07:52:34 PM

Alright, we get it, you have a complaint. However, continuing to complain without an official response just makes you look like you're whining, and don't care about getting anything accomplished.

What I want to get accomplished is what I've been wanting to get accomplished for a long time: no more knee-jerk rulings from elders. The rules of this game are complex and nuanced, and if the ruling-makers can't be nuanced then we need new ruling-makers.

This is not anything against either professor in particular, but a general dissatisfaction with how those with the ability to make rulings view their role. Confirming a ruling should only happen when there is general disagreement among REP's. Posting too quickly is what gets posts like "all due respect to everyone telling me I'm wrong, but I'd like to hear it from an elder" as well as establishing precedent before being sure if the decision even violates core rules of the game.

Those who would call me whiny would call me whiny whether I am unsatisfied with elder behavior or posting about my grandmother dying. It is not whining to attempt to bring attention to a problem. Nobody would have picked up on this problem if nobody had brought attention to it, and this wouldn't be a problem if the bigger problem weren't around.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #27 on:** January 11, 2012, 08:10:08 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on January 11, 2012, 08:05:09 PM

This is not anything against either professor in particular, but a general dissatisfaction with how those with the ability to make rulings view their role. Confirming a ruling should only happen when there is general disagreement among REP's. Posting too quickly is what gets posts like "all due respect to everyone telling me I'm wrong, but I'd like to hear it from an elder" as well as establishing precedent before being sure if the decision even violates core rules of the game.

Among a number of generally useless post in this topic arguing about nothing, I actually agree with this. Constantly posting in non-controversial topics by elders really cheapens the rulings of elders so that everyone feels like they deserve an elder ruling. Sorry, but I don't deserve an elder ruling to confirm that I D3 as opposed to D4 when I start my turn.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #28 on:** January 11, 2012, 08:13:26 PM »

I actually agree with a lot of what you said in your post, Pol. While I do think you're overreacting in this particular thread, you make some solid points.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #29 on:** January 11, 2012, 08:14:38 PM »

Considering everything I've posted has been about that very thing, I must have been making a hash of presenting what my point was if it's suddenly acceptable XD I'm glad I finally got it across intelligibly.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #30 on:** January 11, 2012, 08:22:10 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on January 11, 2012, 08:10:08 PM

Quote from: Minister Polarius on January 11, 2012, 08:05:09 PM
This is not anything against either professor in particular, but a general dissatisfaction with how those with the ability to make rulings view their role. Confirming a ruling should only happen when there is general disagreement among REP's. Posting too quickly is what gets posts like "all due respect to everyone telling me I'm wrong, but I'd like to hear it from an elder" as well as establishing precedent before being sure if the decision even violates core rules of the game.

Among a number of generally useless post in this topic arguing about nothing, I actually agree with this. Constantly posting in non-controversial topics by elders really cheapens the rulings of elders so that everyone feels like they deserve an elder ruling. Sorry, but I don't deserve an elder ruling to confirm that I D3 as opposed to D4 when I start my turn.

I don't think this is the problem. Rather, it is RLKs with too much entitlement.
RLK: Can I do this? I think yes
REP: No, actually.
RLK (still thinks he's right):ELDERS!

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #31 on:** January 11, 2012, 08:26:46 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on January 11, 2012, 08:14:38 PM

Considering everything I've posted has been about that very thing, I must have been making a hash of presenting what my point was if it's suddenly acceptable XD I'm glad I finally got it across intelligibly.

I just think that some of the broader complaints you have don't necessarily apply to this particular issue. I think you jumped the gun a bit on tackling the possibility that a larger issue than this ruling should be looked at. I could be wrong, and I don't really think it matters regardless, since we all seem to be on the same page now.

Aside from that, I agree with Randall for the most part, upon re-examining Pol's post and my own viewpoints. I think that the Elder system definitely has some flaws, but a lot of them are in the way the community reacts to the Elders, rather than anything the Elders themselves are doing.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #32 on:** January 11, 2012, 08:29:07 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on January 11, 2012, 08:26:46 PM

Aside from that, I agree with Randall for the most part, upon re-examining Pol's post and my own viewpoints. I think that the Elder system definitely has some flaws, but a lot of them are in the way the community reacts to the Elders, rather than anything the Elders themselves are doing.

Thanks. I have quite a bit of respect for the Elders, given their volunteer status.

Red Warrior · « **Reply #33 on:** January 11, 2012, 11:30:21 PM »

lol, I just wasted precious time reading this because I wondered what question about Chaldeans could go 3 pages long.
While we're on a side tangent, what is this ruling reference to Priestly Breastplate that keeps getting mentioned? Are we just talking about the "Eats up an activation" ruling or something else?

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #34 on:** January 11, 2012, 11:36:59 PM »

Quote from: Red Warrior on January 11, 2012, 11:30:21 PM

lol, I just wasted precious time reading this because I wondered what question about Chaldeans could go 3 pages long.
While we're on a side tangent, what is this ruling reference to Priestly Breastplate that keeps getting mentioned? Are we just talking about the "Eats up an activation" ruling or something else?

Nope, that's it.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #35 on:** January 12, 2012, 02:05:32 AM »

Quote

RLK: Can I do this? I think yes
REP: No, actually.
RLK (still thinks he's right):ELDERS!

And you really think that would be an issue if elders didn't make a habit of posting on trivial question threads?

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #36 on:** January 12, 2012, 02:14:58 AM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on January 12, 2012, 02:05:32 AM

Quote
RLK: Can I do this? I think yes
REP: No, actually.
RLK (still thinks he's right):ELDERS!
And you really think that would be an issue if elders didn't make a habit of posting on trivial question threads?

I think it absolutely would be, because it's not necessarily a matter of what the Elders do, as much as it is a matter of what the Elders are. It's a status symbol, and the people who demand an answer from an Elder simply want to have that reassurance that whatever asinine question they have that can be answered by REPs is indeed being taken as seriously as any other question. I think that even if the Elders stopped posting on this board entirely, and only posted when it was assuring the members of a heated debate that the matter was being discussed on the other side, or posting the decision from the other side, you'd still get people wanting that Elder reassurance. Even if I'm totally wrong though, I don't think the Elders should feel like they're restricted from posting. If not many people are around and somebody asks an easy question, why shouldn't RDT or Underwood or anyone else take the two minutes to answer that question if they're willing to?

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #37 on:** January 12, 2012, 02:28:45 AM »

From what I know of behavior patterns, people won't expect something they have no reason to expect. If a newer player comes onto the board and sees most ruling questions play out in under a page with general agreement among players with a lot of stars under their names, and shiny titles and colors only posting on very controversial threads 5 pages long, he will not expect to have an elder answer his questions and be content with a consensus or near consensus among hero members posting.

If, however, he comes on and sees that quite frequently, basic questions are answered by fancy titles and colorful stars, he will expect that his questions receive the same level of attention and will not be satisfied until a fancy title with shiny stars tells him it's so.

I'm not in any way meaning to mock by using "fancy titles" or "colorful stars," I'm just relaying how new (especially young) people will see the state of affairs. On pretty much every other forum I'm on, mods rarely post and when they do it's A Big Deal. I love that mods and even gmods are active "normal" members of the forum too, but when they post on non-controversial rulings threads, it creates problems.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #38 on:** January 12, 2012, 10:10:05 AM »

I understand your concern regarding people expecting mod approval for all simple rulings, but I don't think that it's really become a problem. The few times when someone does demand elder input, people have done a good job of explaining again how the system works and that a consensus of REPs is sufficient for ruling confidence (unless and elder specifically posts to disagree). In this way, they actually learn how things work instead of having to assume anything.

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on January 12, 2012, 02:14:58 AM

If not many people are around and somebody asks an easy question, why shouldn't RDT or Underwood or anyone else take the two minutes to answer that question if they're willing to?

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Author Topic: Chaldeans (Read 4262 times)

Chronic Apathy

Re: Chaldeans

Minister Polarius

Re: Chaldeans

Alex_Olijar

Re: Chaldeans

Chronic Apathy

Re: Chaldeans

Minister Polarius

Re: Chaldeans

SomeKittens

Re: Chaldeans

Chronic Apathy

Re: Chaldeans

SomeKittens

Re: Chaldeans

Red Warrior

Re: Chaldeans

Chronic Apathy

Re: Chaldeans

Minister Polarius

Re: Chaldeans

Chronic Apathy

Re: Chaldeans

Minister Polarius

Re: Chaldeans

Prof Underwood

Re: Chaldeans