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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Gabe on April 24, 2011, 08:19:15 AM

Title: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: Gabe on April 24, 2011, 08:19:15 AM
I make a RA with Thomas (Di).  My opponent blocks with Fallen Warrior.  They have initiative and play Bringing Fear, then Joseph in Prison.  Am I allowed to play any interrupt/negate (ex: Reach of Desperation or My Lord My God) that isn't already CBP since it gains CBN status on Thomas, or does it have to have CBP/CBN status before it's played?

Thomas (Di)
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Purple • Ability: 7 / 7 • Class: None • Special Ability: Enhancements used by Thomas cannot be negated. May band to Matthew. • Identifiers: NT Male Human, Disciple

Fallen Warrior (Ki)
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Black • Ability: 2 / 2 • Class: Warrior • Special Ability: Fallen Warrior gains the cumulative abilities (*/*) of each Hero he successfully blocks.

Bringing Fear (FF)
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Black • Ability: 3 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: If used by a Philistine, negate all special abilities on characters and good Enhancements. Cannot be negated.

Joseph in Prison (Pa)
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Black • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Interrupt the battle and remove all cards in battle from the game.

Reach of Desperation (H)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Purple • Ability: 4 / 3 • Class: none • Special Ability: You may interrupt the battle, draw three cards, and play the next enhancement. • Play As: You may interrupt the battle, draw 3 and play an enhancement

My Lord and My God (Di)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Purple • Ability: 2 / 2 • Class: None • Special Ability: If used by a disciple, negate and discard an evil card in play or set-aside area.

*edit* fixed the example so it actually works  ::)
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: 3-Liner And Bags Of Chips on April 24, 2011, 09:58:25 AM
Baalam negates achan's sin so it would matter
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: Alex_Olijar on April 24, 2011, 10:08:40 AM
Imagine the same scenario with Joseph in Prison after Bringing Fear on a Philistine then.
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: Gabe on April 24, 2011, 10:15:07 AM
Right, sorry, bad example.  Use Alex's.
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: Daniel TS RED on April 24, 2011, 10:21:17 AM
I see no difference between Balaam's SA and KoT's SA. Enhancements are being prevented in both cases, but since Thomas' SA makes his enhancements CBN'd, they work vs both regardless.
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: 3-Liner And Bags Of Chips on April 24, 2011, 10:52:57 AM
Right but the enhancement played by baalam cbp so thomas would be able to negate it since it is after the enhancement was played
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: TheHobbit13 on April 24, 2011, 11:11:46 AM
Hmm this is a good question. I would agree with the other that in the hypothetical balaam/ achans sin situation that would work.

However in the other it is a bit more tricky. I so no reason though why mlmg cannot hit joseph in prison and negate it. The enhancement cannot be prevented even by something that negates it cbn (just like tfg doesn't break up a cbn band). Mlmg could not negate bringing fear though it could only discard it.

EDIT I see what you are saying
I see what you are saying Gabe and that makes alot of sense. Since the enhancement is prevented from being played it cannot be played on thomas, I like it. If you cannot play the enhancement I don't think you should be able to get the benefit. The Kot situation is different because it does not stop you from playing enhancements, once one hits the table it CBN.
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: Minister Polarius on April 24, 2011, 12:08:34 PM
Hobbit, your last section confused me. What's being prevented from being played here?

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see how you wouldn't be able to play an interrupt...oh, half-way through that sentence it clicked. Very good question.
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: TechnoEthicist on April 24, 2011, 12:12:42 PM
Baalam negates achan's sin so it would matter

Good catch Dwayne! I was about to post that :p.
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: STAMP on April 24, 2011, 12:17:41 PM
So the PTB created this CBP, CBN, prevent+interrupt<>negate, etc. mess, and now you're asking us for help??   ::)


By the way, I already gave my solution:

(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.futurlec.com%2FPictures%2FCircuit_Analysis_Demystified.jpg&hash=0992b482237060600b2e7b89880910b99bbb80e6)
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: SomeKittens on April 24, 2011, 12:50:43 PM
I see no reason why he couldn't.  What's the big deal?
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: Warrior_Monk on April 24, 2011, 12:59:15 PM
I see no reason why he couldn't.  What's the big deal?
Because it only gains CBN status when played on Thomas. It cannot be played on Thomas because he's being removed from the battle, and the interrupt cannot work because it's being prevented. You can't play something that's not an interrupt in this situation.

I was about to say it should be the other way, but now that I type it out, I'm siding with it needing to be CBN/CBP before being played.
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: Irish_Luck on April 24, 2011, 01:06:22 PM
I see no reason why he couldn't.  What's the big deal?
Because it only gains CBN status when played on Thomas. It cannot be played on Thomas because he's being removed from the battle, and the interrupt cannot work because it's being prevented. You can't play something that's not an interrupt in this situation.

I was about to say it should be the other way, but now that I type it out, I'm siding with it needing to be CBN/CBP before being played.
+1
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: YourMathTeacher on April 24, 2011, 01:09:35 PM
I still don't see the issue. You are losing by removal, so you can play an interrupt card by game rule. Thomas is still in battle when the interrupt is played. If not, then every "remove from game" SA would be CBN. There is nothing that is preventing the playing of a card, only preventing the SA on said card. However, once the card is used by Thomas, the SA is CBN.
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: Master KChief on April 24, 2011, 01:17:51 PM
i agree with ymt.
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: Warrior_Monk on April 24, 2011, 01:19:25 PM
I still don't see the issue. You are losing by removal, so you can play an interrupt card by game rule. Thomas is still in battle when the interrupt is played. If not, then every "remove from game" SA would be CBN. There is nothing that is preventing the playing of a card, only preventing the SA on said card. However, once the card is used by Thomas, the SA is CBN.
By preventing the SA of the card, it is not an interrupt, and it's not CBN until it's played by Thomas. Imagine it isn't Thomas. Can you play the interrupt? No. So why would you be able to play it on Thomas? It's not CBN until it's played by Thomas, so you shouldn't be able to because it's not an interrupt, since the interrupt is prevented.

Essentially, it is preventing the playing of the card, because you can only play an interrupt, and all non-CBP/CBN interrupts are prevented.

I have a feeling that the others may rule it works for simplicities sake though.
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: YourMathTeacher on April 24, 2011, 01:20:27 PM
There is nothing preventing me from placing an interrupt card on the table.
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: Gabe on April 24, 2011, 01:32:26 PM
Imagine it isn't Thomas. Can you play the interrupt?

This is really the question that matters.  Obviously there is not a consensus. 

The more I think about it and look at everyone's answers, I have a feeling the answer is, yes you can play an interrupt.  People never do  when it's being prevented/negated because it wouldn't help the situation.  However, if it's CBN/CBP, either by the SA of the Enhancement or because of the character it's played on, it would work.
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: YourMathTeacher on April 24, 2011, 01:35:08 PM
That was my basic premise. There is nothing stopping me from playing Son of God when Altar of Ahaz is active, but whether the special ability of Son of God works is dependent on the interaction of all the cards in play.
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: Ryupeco11 on April 24, 2011, 01:38:38 PM
By preventing the SA of the card, it is not an interrupt, and it's not CBN until it's played by Thomas. Imagine it isn't Thomas. Can you play the interrupt? No. So why would you be able to play it on Thomas? It's not CBN until it's played by Thomas, so you shouldn't be able to because it's not an interrupt, since the interrupt is prevented.



If it were Ehud You would be able to play Ehuds dagger(gold version) and interrupt and discard JIP right? so you should be able to play any interrupt/negate card on Thomous.
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: Warrior_Monk on April 24, 2011, 01:43:12 PM
By preventing the SA of the card, it is not an interrupt, and it's not CBN until it's played by Thomas. Imagine it isn't Thomas. Can you play the interrupt? No. So why would you be able to play it on Thomas? It's not CBN until it's played by Thomas, so you shouldn't be able to because it's not an interrupt, since the interrupt is prevented.
If it were Ehud You would be able to play Ehuds dagger(gold version) and interrupt and discard JIP right? so you should be able to play any interrupt/negate card on Thomas.
I would say no, you would not, because it's not CBP/CBN until it's played, and it cannot be played because it doesn't interrupt. That's not the way it's looking like it'll be ruled though (and I'm not too surprised either).

The more I think about it and look at everyone's answers, I have a feeling the answer is, yes you can play an interrupt.  People never do  when it's being prevented/negated because it wouldn't help the situation.
Working on a situation where it would help...
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: Ryupeco11 on April 24, 2011, 01:46:38 PM
I would say no, you would not, because it's not CBP/CBN until it's played, and it cannot be played because it doesn't interrupt. That's not the way it's looking like it'll be ruled though (and I'm not too surprised either).


If thats the case then any "interrupt" Can't interrupt until it is played so why can we play interrupts at all when a character is being removed?
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: YourMathTeacher on April 24, 2011, 01:48:49 PM
Game rule says that only an interrupt card can be played. There is nothing preventing the playing of an interrupt card. I play an interrupt card. Whether that interrupt card actually does anything is dependent upon the interaction of all cards in play. In this case, the card's SA is not read until after it hits the table, at which point it is being used by Thomas.
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: Ryupeco11 on April 24, 2011, 01:50:57 PM
Game rule says that only an interrupt card can be played. There is nothing preventing the playing of an interrupt card. I play an interrupt card. Whether that interrupt card actually does anything is dependent upon the interaction of all cards in play. In this case, the card's SA is not read until after it hits the table, at which point it is being used by Thomas.

I agree with this
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: Warrior_Monk on April 24, 2011, 02:00:16 PM
Okay, here's the situation:
Sauce versus Wraith. T2.
Sauce has three lost souls in a Babylonian Banquet Hall, one being the speed bump. I have the */4 out.
Sauce rescues with Ehud, who has been set aside with Training in Righteousness and can play Red as well. He chooses Gomer (TexP), and I band to Nebuchadnezzar and search and play Dream followed by another Dream. I draw Son of God and New Jerusalem, and could win the game, but I have 13 cards in my hand and Speed Bump is out. I don't play another enhancement (thinking that I can make him waste one by playing Korah's Rebellion later), and Sauce plays The Battle is the Lord's and negates brown, (knowing that I have a Korah's Rebellion in my hand). He then plays Capturing Canaan to capture both of my characters.

With what you guys are saying, I can play Korah's Rebellion anyway, getting my hand down to 12 cards, then being able to play Son of God and New Jerusalem FTW. Otherwise, Sauce could play Threatened Lives (off of High Places), putting BBH to the bottom, preventing me from winning on my turn. He then draws FBTN soul and plays his Son of God New Jerusalem (responding to his own action) and wins the game. This could be important.
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: YourMathTeacher on April 24, 2011, 02:34:57 PM
I would rule that you could play Korah's Rebellion to help win the game.
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: browarod on April 24, 2011, 03:17:58 PM
Does that even work, though? Does the speed bump Lost Soul's protection fall off between when you put SoG/NJ on the table and when they activate and try to rescue? I didn't think anything could interrupt the ability of a dominant.
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: ChristianSoldier on April 24, 2011, 03:22:41 PM
According to the rulebook (on the REG) you can play a card with an interrupt or negate ability, it says nothing about whether or not its being negated or not, also it doesn't even say it has to interrupt the ability that is removing you.
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: everytribe on April 24, 2011, 03:28:54 PM
Gabe, I am suprised that you posted such a newbe question. I always knew that you advanced in redemption quite quickly, maybe you have crossed over into the old timers catagory and joined Countfount and MJB362436.
An enhancement played on Thomas can not be negated
     cannot be negated can not be negated
     cannot be negated can not be negated
     cannot be negated can not be negated
     cannot be negated cannot be prevented can not be interuppted
     cannot be negated cannot be prevented can not be interuppted
     cannot be negated cannot be prevented can not be interuppted
   
Cannot be negated cannot be negated
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: TheHobbit13 on April 24, 2011, 03:40:11 PM
I would rule that you could play Korah's Rebellion to help win the game.
It is assumed that a negate sa actually has to negate to be considered for the purposes of playing the enhancement in a removal situation. This doesn't neccessarily mean that Thomas could not play reach. You could argue that, since this negate would be cbn if played than it cbp and therefore would break through the phillies negate.

I could see these going either way, I for one say that the elders should rule this in favor of the most intuitive outcome. That is Thomas being able to play a negate. I don't like seeing things not working based on technicalities.



Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: YourMathTeacher on April 24, 2011, 03:47:50 PM
I would rule that you could play Korah's Rebellion to help win the game.
It is assumed that a negate sa actually has to negate to be considered for the purposes of playing the enhancement in a removal situation.

Redemption® Rulebook > Situation Descriptions > Losing the Battle > Losing by Removal because of a Special Ability
A Hero is losing by removal if the Hero is being captured, discarded, returned to territory, or otherwise removed from battle by an opposing special ability. You have initiative, but you may only play an enhancement that has an “interrupt” or “negate” special ability.

My ruling would be based on the Rulebook, since Korah's Rebellion is "an enhancement that has an “interrupt” or “negate” special ability."
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: TheHobbit13 on April 24, 2011, 04:04:16 PM
I understood what your reasoning was, but I think you have to look at the intention of the rule.
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: STAMP on April 24, 2011, 05:44:13 PM
Gabe, I am suprised that you posted such a newbe question. I always knew that you advanced in redemption quite quickly, maybe you have crossed over into the old timers catagory and joined Countfount and MJB362436.
An enhancement played on Thomas can not be negated
     cannot be negated can not be negated
     cannot be negated can not be negated
     cannot be negated can not be negated
     cannot be negated cannot be prevented can not be interuppted
     cannot be negated cannot be prevented can not be interuppted
     cannot be negated cannot be prevented can not be interuppted
   
Cannot be negated cannot be negated

I'll give Gabe the benefit of the doubt.  Once "cannot be prevented" no longer meant "cannot be prevented", you can start to question whether "cannot be negated" really means "cannot be negated".  You can even start to question whether bratwurst from MN or IA is better  ;)
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: Warrior_Monk on April 24, 2011, 09:24:26 PM
Based on what the rulebook says, I would say you can play an interrupt.

Gabe, I am suprised that you posted such a newbe question. I always knew that you advanced in redemption quite quickly, maybe you have crossed over into the old timers catagory and joined Countfount and MJB362436.
An enhancement played on Thomas can not be negated
     cannot be negated can not be negated
     cannot be negated can not be negated
     cannot be negated can not be negated
     cannot be negated cannot be prevented can not be interuppted
     cannot be negated cannot be prevented can not be interuppted
     cannot be negated cannot be prevented can not be interuppted
   
Cannot be negated cannot be negated
That's true, but his question wasn't newbie. The question was really if you could even play an enhancement at that point.
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: Minister Polarius on April 25, 2011, 12:18:00 AM
Hasn't that rulebook quote been amended to "a card that would interrupt the removal" or some such like 30 times? It seems like every few months it gets clarified and then people forget again and try to play MLaMG to Discard an Evil Fort in response to an Evil Battle-winner.
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: Red Dragon Thorn on April 25, 2011, 01:52:21 AM
I agree with Pol there.

I've always understood the rule to be - If you're being removed from battle, the next card you play, must make it so that you're not being removed from battle anymore. In other words, you must negate/interrupt the card removing you.
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: Lamborghini_diablo on April 25, 2011, 08:02:59 AM
I'm with YMT that the cards are, by nature, interrupts and negates purely because they have the words "Interrupt" or "Negate" in the title.
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: Gabe on April 25, 2011, 08:36:59 AM
Pol and RDT are correct.  Under special initiative your interrupt/negate must target the card removing you.
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: crustpope on April 25, 2011, 08:49:03 AM
Pol and RDT are correct.  Under special initiative your interrupt/negate must target the card removing you.

at the ohio nationals, I had this ruled against me.  I was defeating them via special ability and htey interrupted to d/c my protect fort.  I said they could not do that but a judge ruled against me.  I think it was BRyon who said that as long as it was an iterrupt they could play it, and then keep playing interrupts until they ran out.  It eventually won them the game because they were able to wreck my defense by d/cing a protect fort. 

It was frustrating.
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: Gabe on April 25, 2011, 09:27:22 AM
I'm not sure if this is what happened at OH Nats, but if you use an "interrupt the battle + play next" card you can target whatever you want with the play next.  The interrupt the battle card puts the removal on hold, satisfying the requirement of special initiative.  Then, when you get to play next you're not required to target the card that's removing you.
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: crustpope on April 25, 2011, 09:33:44 AM
I'm not sure if this is what happened at OH Nats, but if you use an "interrupt the battle + play next" card you can target whatever you want with the play next.  The interrupt the battle card puts the removal on hold, satisfying the requirement of special initiative.  Then, when you get to play next you're not required to target the card that's removing you.

That is what was happening, but how is that different from what pol is describing?
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: Professoralstad on April 25, 2011, 09:46:45 AM
What Pol was describing is using a card that says: "Negate and discard an evil card in play" (MLaMG) to negate something other than what is removing me. For example, Thomas is blocked and gets captured, and you try to play MLaMG on your opponent's Raider's Camp instead of the capture card. That is illegal, because in order to use your special initiative, you need to interrupt/negate the capture. However, you can always play a card that says interrupt the battle when granted special initiative, even if you then perform an action that does nothing against the removal of your Hero. For example, if Judas used Coliseum Lions against your Priest, you can still interrupt the battle with Zeal and discard two other EC's, even though you can't use Zeal to stop the discard.
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: crustpope on April 25, 2011, 09:57:28 AM
oh I see the difference, thanks
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: Warrior_Monk on April 25, 2011, 10:13:51 AM
I'm not sure the original question has been answered yet. "A card that would interrupt the removal" How do we define potential interruption? Is it dependent on the hero? (Reach would interrupt the removal if played on Thomas, but not on Matthew). Or is it dependent on the situation? (Reach would interrupt the removal (no matter who it's played on), but Bringing Fear is negating it). Or is it how YMT described and it's just an interrupt card that targets the removal?
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: Noah on April 25, 2011, 10:44:06 AM
Okay, here's the situation:
Sauce versus Wraith. T2.
Sauce has three lost souls in a Babylonian Banquet Hall, one being the speed bump. I have the */4 out.
Sauce rescues with Ehud, who has been set aside with Training in Righteousness and can play Red as well. He chooses Gomer (TexP), and I band to Nebuchadnezzar and search and play Dream followed by another Dream. I draw Son of God and New Jerusalem, and could win the game, but I have 13 cards in my hand and Speed Bump is out. I don't play another enhancement (thinking that I can make him waste one by playing Korah's Rebellion later), and Sauce plays The Battle is the Lord's and negates brown, (knowing that I have a Korah's Rebellion in my hand). He then plays Capturing Canaan to capture both of my characters.

With what you guys are saying, I can play Korah's Rebellion anyway, getting my hand down to 12 cards, then being able to play Son of God and New Jerusalem FTW. Otherwise, Sauce could play Threatened Lives (off of High Places), putting BBH to the bottom, preventing me from winning on my turn. He then draws FBTN soul and plays his Son of God New Jerusalem (responding to his own action) and wins the game. This could be important.

I just thought I would point out that Ehud can't choose Gomer to block.

Ehud (RA)
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Yellow • Ability: 7 / 4 • Class: Warrior • Special Ability: Interrupt Wall of Protection and choose a male Evil Character from opponent's territory to block. Ehud has first strike. • Play As: Interrupt Wall of Protection and choose a male Evil Character from opponent's territory to block [choose opponent]. Ehud has first strike. • Identifiers: OT Male Human, Judge, Fought Earthly Battle • Verse: Judges 3:15 • Availability: Rock of Ages booster packs (None)


Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: Lamborghini_diablo on April 25, 2011, 12:43:14 PM
I love how we're all too interested in the questions at hand to make sure our examples even work.  :D
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: Warrior_Monk on April 25, 2011, 12:53:31 PM
Okay, so he doesn't CTB, and I decide to block Gomer + Nebuchadnezzar.
Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: TheHobbit13 on April 25, 2011, 02:43:06 PM
What, looks like a man to me.


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Title: Re: CBP vs CBN?
Post by: YourMathTeacher on April 25, 2011, 05:16:49 PM
Hasn't that rulebook quote been amended to "a card that would interrupt the removal" or some such like 30 times? It seems like every few months it gets clarified and then people forget again and try to play MLaMG to Discard an Evil Fort in response to an Evil Battle-winner.

It would help if this were written somewhere that it would be remembered.
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