Author Topic: CBN and initiative (Read 5804 times)

Master KChief · « **Reply #25 on:** January 19, 2010, 02:42:56 AM »

the reg does not say if you cant play an enhancement, then you dont have initiative. where does it say that? at all? there are plenty of places in the rules where if a special ability overrides a rule, it can override a particular part and not the entire clause. just because you cant play an enhancement does not mean the rest of the initiative clause is void.

what does initiative say? initiative is given to the player who is losing the current battle. period.

what can you do while you retain initiative? play the next enhancement.

are you allowed to play the next enhancement against a cbi/cbn battle winner? no.

does this negate the fact you had initiative in the first place? no.

until i see a shred of evidence in the REG linking no initiative given versus a cbi/cbp battle winner, then this is the way i see it.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #26 on:** January 19, 2010, 02:10:59 PM »

Is there a difference between you having initiative and your priest having initiative?

SirNobody · « **Reply #27 on:** January 19, 2010, 04:43:19 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: RTSmaniac on January 19, 2010, 02:10:59 PM

Is there a difference between you having initiative and your priest having initiative?

Your priest has initiative means (1) you have initiative and (2) you have a priest in the current battle.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

SirNobody · « **Reply #28 on:** January 19, 2010, 05:01:22 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: Master KChief on January 19, 2010, 02:42:56 AM

the reg does not say if you cant play an enhancement, then you dont have initiative. where does it say that?

[If (A -> B) and (not B) then (not A)] is a logical tautology.

(A -> B) or (if you have initiative you can play an enhancement) is true based on the REG quote.
(not B) or (you cannot play an enhancement after you are captured by Dungeon) is true.
therefore (not A) or (you do not have initiative) must be true.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #29 on:** January 19, 2010, 06:03:39 PM »

hmm...

so if you cant play an enhancement, then you dont have initiative?

sounds good in theory but i feel i dont completely agree- seems like there needs to be more to this somehow

browarod · « **Reply #30 on:** January 19, 2010, 09:12:39 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on January 19, 2010, 05:01:22 PM

[If (A -> B) and (not B) then (not A)] is a logical tautology.

Sure it is, but it doesn't apply to this particular scenario. You are allowed to do other things when you have initiative (such as play a dominant, or activate a triggered artifact) so B (playing an enhancement) is not the only consequent implied by A (initiative). A can imply B, C (playing a dominant), or even D (activating a triggered artifact). As such, simply stating that not B is true does not in turn imply not A is true, as A can still be true based on the results of C and/or D.

SirNobody · « **Reply #31 on:** January 19, 2010, 09:34:24 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: browarod on January 19, 2010, 09:12:39 PM

A can imply B, C (playing a dominant), or even D (activating a triggered artifact). As such, simply stating that not B is true does not in turn imply not A is true, as A can still be true based on the results of C and/or D.

A can imply C and D as well, that is correct. But it would imply C and D in addition to B not as an alternative to B. (When you have initiative you have the option to play an enhancement AND you have the option to play a dominant.) So adding C and D would change the statement to:

If (A -> [B and C and D]) and (not [B and C and D]) then (not A)

if (not B) is true (i.e. B is false) then (not [B and C and D]) is also true (if B is false then it is not possible for B, C, and D to all be true). So the other options you have when you have initiative don't change the fact that if you can't play an enhancement, you don't have initiative.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

browarod · « **Reply #32 on:** January 19, 2010, 09:41:50 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on January 19, 2010, 09:34:24 PM

A can imply C and D as well, that is correct. But it would imply C and D in addition to B not as an alternative to B. (When you have initiative you have the option to play an enhancement AND you have the option to play a dominant.) So adding C and D would change the statement to:

If (A -> [B and C and D]) and (not [B and C and D]) then (not A)

if (not B) is true (i.e. B is false) then (not [B and C and D]) is also true (if B is false then it is not possible for B, C, and D to all be true). So the other options you have when you have initiative don't change the fact that if you can't play an enhancement, you don't have initiative.

If you don't have any enhancements in your hand, not B is true, yet you still have initiative and can do C or D. If your artifact is ongoing and not triggered, not D would be true, yet you could still do B or C. Why does A imply B and C and D? You can't play an enhancement AND a dominant. You can do one or the other. After you play one, its ability carries through, and then another initiative check is made as well as another A if the initiative returns to you.

Master KChief · « **Reply #33 on:** January 19, 2010, 09:43:59 PM »

the rulebook/reg doesnt say that if you have initiative, you must play an enhancement. it says you can play an enhancement, one of multiple courses of action you can do with initiative. if a cbn/cbi card is stopping you from following up with an enhancement, then thats simply one restriction you are not allowed to with your initiative. playing an enhancement means you have initiative, but having initiative does not always mean you can play an enhancement. just like all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.

SirNobody · « **Reply #34 on:** January 19, 2010, 10:02:09 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: browarod on January 19, 2010, 09:41:50 PM

If you don't have any enhancements in your hand, not B is true, yet you still have initiative and can do C or D. If your artifact is ongoing and not triggered, not D would be true, yet you could still do B or C. Why does A imply B and C and D? You can't play an enhancement AND a dominant. You can do one or the other. After you play one, its ability carries through, and then another initiative check is made as well as another A if the initiative returns to you.

B is that you are allowed to play an enhancement not that you necessarily do play one. Similarly C and D allow you to use such an ability if you have one at your disposal, it doesn't mean that you will necessarily have one at your disposal. If you have initiative you are allowed to do B, C, or D so B AND C AND D are allowed.

Quote from: Master KChief on January 19, 2010, 09:43:59 PM

the rulebook/reg doesnt say that if you have initiative, you must play an enhancement. it says you can play an enhancement, one of multiple courses of action you can do with initiative. if a cbn/cbi card is stopping you from following up with an enhancement, then thats simply one restriction you are not allowed to with your initiative. playing an enhancement means you have initiative, but having initiative does not always mean you can play an enhancement. just like all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.

I stand by my logic.

This question came up when Priests was released (I believe I was the one that asked the question actually) and the ruling is/was that you can only use Silver Trumpets in a situation where you could use an enhancement that had the same ability (disregarding scenarios where the enhancement would be negated but the artifact wouldn't).

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #35 on:** January 19, 2010, 10:08:36 PM »

So you stand by a four-year-old ruling that essentially amounts to "you can only do something if you could do it with an Enhancement?"

Master KChief · « **Reply #36 on:** January 19, 2010, 10:14:55 PM »

perhaps that logic needs to be re-evaluated since there is no hard evidence whatsoever linking playing an enhancement with whether or not you have initiative. the rulebook says you have initiative when you are losing the battle. are you losing the battle when a cbi/cbn battle winner is played? yes. does it say there is a special rule that states you do not have initiative in these situations if you are unable to play an enhancement? no. seems pretty clear to me.

browarod · « **Reply #37 on:** January 19, 2010, 10:31:34 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on January 19, 2010, 10:02:09 PM

so B AND C AND D are allowed.

This statement would have to be fit into a completely different equation than the one you've been using thus far. The conditional goes between the antecedent and the consequent, not after the consequent. Initiative means you are allowed to play an enhancement, you are allowed to play a dominant, or you are allowed to activate a triggered artifact. The equation for that is: {A <-> [B or C or D]}. And, using this equation, even if not B is true, A can still be true.

That said, I still agree with what I thought earlier that if a CBI or CBN enhancement is removing your only priest from battle, you wouldn't meet the criteria of Silver Trumpets.

SirNobody · « **Reply #38 on:** January 19, 2010, 10:37:29 PM »

Hey,

The rulebook says:

Quote

DETERMINE INITIATIVE, PLAY AN ENHANCEMENT, REPEAT - If you have a Hero(es) in the Field of Battle and your opponent has an Evil Character(s) in the Field of Battle, you need to check for initiative.

After a can't be negated Dungeon, you don't have a hero in battle, so there is no need to check for initiative so no one has initiative.

Not to mention that even if you do have initiative, you no longer have a priest in battle, so the condition of The Silver Trumpets isn't satisfied anyway.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #39 on:** January 20, 2010, 12:34:50 AM »

That line of arguing will get you nowhere. As we all know, being removed from battle doesn't actually remove you from battle right away.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #40 on:** January 20, 2010, 08:16:33 AM »

Agreed, if that was the case, NOTHING could be negated in a one on one battle, because the instant they leave battle, end of battle. Thats why Heavy Taxes cant be interrupted afterwards... but thats the situation that every type of character removing card would create. I strongly oppose that argument AND that statement to a degree, and I think battles should not end until one player has no more characters and cannot ADD anymore.

Furthermore, your line of argument makes battle extenders such as Unknown Nation, Gates of Hell, Madness, and site guard cards into utter trash.

browarod · « **Reply #41 on:** January 20, 2010, 10:57:29 AM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on January 20, 2010, 12:34:50 AM

As we all know, being removed from battle doesn't actually remove you from battle right away.

Except that a CBI/CBN enhancement DOES remove you right away, since you can't interrupt it. So, for the purposes of Silver Trumpets, you may then have initiative to do other things (like use dominants, other artifacts, or fortresses) but you don't have a Priest and thus you can't use Trumpets.

SirNobody · « **Reply #42 on:** January 20, 2010, 05:48:16 PM »

Hey,

The battle ends when both players agree they are done playing cards in battle or when an end the battle ability is used. Initiative and having characters in battle has nothing to do with deciding when the battle ends.

Unknown Nation, Gates of Hell, and Dominants can be played in battle even if you don't have initiative. I don't understand how they relate to this discussion at all.

I play Dungeon on your only hero in battle. Silver Trumpets then must be used before or after Dungeon is carried out. Silver Trumpets cannot be used before Dungeon is carried out, because that would interrupt Dungeon and Dungeon cannot be negated so you can't interrupt it. Silver Trumpets cannot be used after Dungeon because at that point you no longer have a priest in battle. So you can't use Silver Trumpets at all.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #43 on:** January 20, 2010, 07:59:31 PM »

You still have initative though, you just cant interrupt the card thats killing you. I still believe that you can use that initative to TRY and interrupt the battle with silver trumpets, fail to do so, and then proceed to band in another hero.

browarod · « **Reply #44 on:** January 20, 2010, 09:08:33 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on January 20, 2010, 07:59:31 PM

You still have initative though, you just cant interrupt the card thats killing you. I still believe that you can use that initative to TRY and interrupt the battle with silver trumpets, fail to do so, and then proceed to band in another hero.

But once you can't interrupt your Priest is gone and you no longer meet the trigger for Trumpets.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #45 on:** January 20, 2010, 09:14:30 PM »

What in the rulebook/REG says that you don't have initiative after a CBN removal card is played?

GENERALLY it is played as though you don't because you normally can't do anything, because the only cards you could have played are interrupts. However, this card does MORE than just interrupt, and the second effect would technically allow you to extend the battle.

So, prove to me where it says in the reg, that if a CBN ability removes my hero from battle, I absolutely do not have initative.

browarod · « **Reply #46 on:** January 20, 2010, 09:15:46 PM »

You DO have initiative, but not a Priest.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #47 on:** January 20, 2010, 09:43:33 PM »

What is stopping me from TRYING to interrupt a CBN card using an ITB card before my priest dies?

Its like playing deluge with an immune character in battle. You cant target him, but you can target everything else, why wouldn't an ITB ability be allowed to try and activate, but fail to interrupt the removal ability?

browarod · « **Reply #48 on:** January 20, 2010, 10:00:14 PM »

Because even if you interrupt everything but the removal, it still removes your Priest and you still don't meet Trumpet's trigger?

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #49 on:** January 21, 2010, 02:57:58 AM »

You have special initiative because you are being removed (and regardless of what anybody or nobody says, the current rules do not make any provision for whether or not the removing ability can be interrupted when determining whether you have special initiative). Silver Trumpets has a trigger that activates when you have initiative and a Priest in battle. Clearly, when Silver Trumpets activates, your character is still in battle, otherwise you would not be able to interrupt a normal battle-winner (who would you play the Enhancement on otherwise?). Silver Trumpets is the only card in the game that has an ability that can be triggered by special initiative that does not necessarily require an Interrupt to carry out the rest of its ability.

During the window in which you would be able to play an Interrupt if you were being removed by an Interruptable card, Silver Trumpets adds a Priest to battle. Following that action, the removal is carried out and you are left with the old EC against the new Priest, with Evil having initiative if it is a mutual destruction situation.

There is nothing in the current rules that contradicts anything I have just said. If it's different in the new REG, then fine, but the new REG isn't out yet.

News:

Author Topic: CBN and initiative (Read 5804 times)

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Lamborghini_diablo

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