Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: stefferweffer on January 18, 2010, 10:58:04 AM
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Does a CBN enhancement remove initiative? I'm specifically thinking about "The Name of the Lord", which states that if I have initiative I can remove my hero from the battle and place them in the fortress. What if they have played something like King Zed and Dungeon of Malchiah? Do I still have a chance to remove my hero from the battle?
Thanks.
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that is a good question. I have always played it that you do not gain initiative to interrupt with TNotL when a CBN removal enhancment is played against your hero in battle. (ex. zeddy+dungeon)
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Anything that is CBN or CBI does not give special initiative to interrupt or negate. That's all that special initiative is for so if you can't... well... you can't.
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I will have to agree with RTSmaniac. That makes sense to me.
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It doesn't matter anyway, because The Name of the Lord says that if you have intiative, "Interrupt the battle," and Dungeon cannot be interrupted in this case.
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My caution to this question is ...In what situation do other interrupt abilities besides those on enhancments gain "special initiative" such as those on fortress's, LS (future speculation), artifacts, sites, ect.
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You mean like this:
The Silver Trumpets
Type: Artifact • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: When your Priest has initiative during a rescue attempt, you may band a human O.T. Hero from your territory into battle or interrupt the battle and return your Heroes in battle to hand. May be used twice.
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so in silver trumpets case, the interrupt battle part wont work...but would the 'band a human ot hero' part work against say zed/dungeon?
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What if instead I was in a FBTN battle against KOT? Why am I allowed to interrupt that battle and place my hero in The Name of the Lord? It just seems to me that Fortress abilities are different than cards that get played in battle. Am I making sense?
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What if instead I was in a FBTN battle against KOT? Why am I allowed to interrupt that battle and place my hero in The Name of the Lord? It just seems to me that Fortress abilities are different than cards that get played in battle. Am I making sense?
KoT (and other FBTN) only negate the abilities of characters and enhancements.
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Yes, but Zed + Dungeon only says that IT cannot be interrupted, not that the battle can't be interrupted. I guess it makes sense, it's just confusing. I guess my question was answered though. There is no initiative if a battle winning enhancement is CBN.
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so in silver trumpets case, the interrupt battle part wont work...but would the 'band a human ot hero' part work against say zed/dungeon?
I think the band part WOULD work. I think you do have initiative, just that you can't interrupt what has already been done. Therefore, your hero will be captured (or whatever), but you do still have the ability to band someone in.
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is banding someone into battle the same as adding to battle? can of worms i know...
i guess my question would be if an enhancment cant be interrupted, can you still interrupt the battle?
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"Interrupt the Battle" is not a generalization, it is defined in the rulebook and REG:
Interrupt the battle interrupts the following:
• Your opponent’s special abilities that are (1) causing you to be losing by removal (e.g., your opponent’s Net), or (2) causing a mutual destruction by mutual removal (e.g., your opponent’s King Zimri but not your own King Zimri).
• The last enhancement played in battle, as long as it was played by an opponent (e.g., your opponent’s False Peace but not your own Reach of Desperation).
• ALL ongoing special abilities (see Ongoing Abilities).
If none of these (that can be interrupted) are in the battle, then you cannot interrupt the battle.
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so that would mean that you cant band in with The Silver Trumpets, right?
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so that would mean that you cant band in with The Silver Trumpets, right?
That's right. I asked about that a few months ago and was told that you couldn't band another hero if you have special initative by removal.
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But the Banding in Silver Trumpets is not contingent on the ITB, only the Withdraw is. You have initiative, why can't you band? Silver Trumpets says you can...
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Hey,
The "special initiative to negate your own removal" is not given if the ability that removed you can't be negated.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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The problem here is that there are 2 ways of looking at this.
1st perspective:
If a player is losing, they have "regular initiative".
If they are losing by a special ability, then their initiative is limited to only playing negates or interrupts.
Therefore, "special initiative" is a subset of "regular initiative".
Therefore, if the special ability CBN, then they still have initiative, but can't play a negate or interrupt.
Therefore, they could still use Silver Trumpets to band in using their regular initiative.
2nd perspective:
If a player is losing by the numbers, they ONLY have "regular initiative".
If a player is losing by special ability, they ONLY have "special initiative" to play negates or interrupts.
Therefore, "special initiative" is completely separate from "regular initiative".
Therefore, if the special ability is CBN, then they have NO initiative at all.
Therefore, they could NOT use the Silver Trumpets to band in at that point.
Can anyone prove that one of these perspectives is right and the other wrong?
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If Special Initiative is not a subset of Regular Imitative, TNotL and Silver Trumpets only work when you have Initiative, as neither of those cards say anything about when you have "special initiative."
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i view silver trumpets' band/add to battle ability in the same vein as grapes/unknown nation/gates of hell. the opponent can zed/dungeon you, but you can still use grapes on zed because the battle is still not yet over. the opponent can discard your evil character with aotl, but you can still use nation/gates to add an evil character to battle.
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+1 with MKC.
I see it as the following. You are being losing and have initiative. However, we just default to the battle ending because interrupts cannot stop the CBN removal. However, if you use Silver Trumpets, it does this:
Tries to interrupt the battle, but fails to interrupt the enhancement that is killing my hero. It then continues on to simply add another hero to battle, and the battle continues.
It really is no different than using Gates of Hell. Neither can stop the CBN enhancements, but both should be able to add a character to battle and continue the fight.
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i agree, there is nothing in the rulebook/reg that suggests a person does not still have initiative. however, it does say how a person is given initiative:
Initiative
A player with initiative may play the next enhancement. Initiative is always given to the player who is losing the current battle. The losing player cannot pass initiative.
When there is a stalemate or a mutual destruction, the player who did not play the last card has initiative, but he must pass initiative if he does not play a card.
which does blanket cbi/cbn abilities. just because there are very rare situations where the battle does default to the end of battle after a cbi/cbn battle winner has been played does not mean the losing player still does not have initiative.
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The only problem I see with Lamborghini's reasoning is that Silver Trumpets says "when your Priest has initiative." If it can't interrupt a CBN enhancement, then once the enhancement finishes you no longer have a Priest to target and Silver Trumpets can't be used, regardless of current battle status.
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Hey,
You can only use The Silver Trumpets at a time that you could use an enhancement that had the same ability as The Silver Trumpets. That's how it's always been ruled.
Initiative
A player with initiative may play the next enhancement.
If your only character in battle has just been captured by Dungeon (on King Zed) you cannot play the next enhancement. Based on that REG quote, if you can't play an enhancement, then you don't have initiative.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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the reg does not say if you cant play an enhancement, then you dont have initiative. where does it say that? at all? there are plenty of places in the rules where if a special ability overrides a rule, it can override a particular part and not the entire clause. just because you cant play an enhancement does not mean the rest of the initiative clause is void.
what does initiative say? initiative is given to the player who is losing the current battle. period.
what can you do while you retain initiative? play the next enhancement.
are you allowed to play the next enhancement against a cbi/cbn battle winner? no.
does this negate the fact you had initiative in the first place? no.
until i see a shred of evidence in the REG linking no initiative given versus a cbi/cbp battle winner, then this is the way i see it.
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Is there a difference between you having initiative and your priest having initiative?
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Hey,
Is there a difference between you having initiative and your priest having initiative?
Your priest has initiative means (1) you have initiative and (2) you have a priest in the current battle.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Hey,
the reg does not say if you cant play an enhancement, then you dont have initiative. where does it say that?
[If (A -> B) and (not B) then (not A)] is a logical tautology.
(A -> B) or (if you have initiative you can play an enhancement) is true based on the REG quote.
(not B) or (you cannot play an enhancement after you are captured by Dungeon) is true.
therefore (not A) or (you do not have initiative) must be true.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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hmm...
so if you cant play an enhancement, then you dont have initiative?
sounds good in theory but i feel i dont completely agree- seems like there needs to be more to this somehow
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[If (A -> B) and (not B) then (not A)] is a logical tautology.
Sure it is, but it doesn't apply to this particular scenario. You are allowed to do other things when you have initiative (such as play a dominant, or activate a triggered artifact) so B (playing an enhancement) is not the only consequent implied by A (initiative). A can imply B, C (playing a dominant), or even D (activating a triggered artifact). As such, simply stating that not B is true does not in turn imply not A is true, as A can still be true based on the results of C and/or D.
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Hey,
A can imply B, C (playing a dominant), or even D (activating a triggered artifact). As such, simply stating that not B is true does not in turn imply not A is true, as A can still be true based on the results of C and/or D.
A can imply C and D as well, that is correct. But it would imply C and D in addition to B not as an alternative to B. (When you have initiative you have the option to play an enhancement AND you have the option to play a dominant.) So adding C and D would change the statement to:
If (A -> [B and C and D]) and (not [B and C and D]) then (not A)
if (not B) is true (i.e. B is false) then (not [B and C and D]) is also true (if B is false then it is not possible for B, C, and D to all be true). So the other options you have when you have initiative don't change the fact that if you can't play an enhancement, you don't have initiative.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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A can imply C and D as well, that is correct. But it would imply C and D in addition to B not as an alternative to B. (When you have initiative you have the option to play an enhancement AND you have the option to play a dominant.) So adding C and D would change the statement to:
If (A -> [B and C and D]) and (not [B and C and D]) then (not A)
if (not B) is true (i.e. B is false) then (not [B and C and D]) is also true (if B is false then it is not possible for B, C, and D to all be true). So the other options you have when you have initiative don't change the fact that if you can't play an enhancement, you don't have initiative.
If you don't have any enhancements in your hand, not B is true, yet you still have initiative and can do C or D. If your artifact is ongoing and not triggered, not D would be true, yet you could still do B or C. Why does A imply B and C and D? You can't play an enhancement AND a dominant. You can do one or the other. After you play one, its ability carries through, and then another initiative check is made as well as another A if the initiative returns to you.
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the rulebook/reg doesnt say that if you have initiative, you must play an enhancement. it says you can play an enhancement, one of multiple courses of action you can do with initiative. if a cbn/cbi card is stopping you from following up with an enhancement, then thats simply one restriction you are not allowed to with your initiative. playing an enhancement means you have initiative, but having initiative does not always mean you can play an enhancement. just like all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.
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Hey,
If you don't have any enhancements in your hand, not B is true, yet you still have initiative and can do C or D. If your artifact is ongoing and not triggered, not D would be true, yet you could still do B or C. Why does A imply B and C and D? You can't play an enhancement AND a dominant. You can do one or the other. After you play one, its ability carries through, and then another initiative check is made as well as another A if the initiative returns to you.
B is that you are allowed to play an enhancement not that you necessarily do play one. Similarly C and D allow you to use such an ability if you have one at your disposal, it doesn't mean that you will necessarily have one at your disposal. If you have initiative you are allowed to do B, C, or D so B AND C AND D are allowed.
the rulebook/reg doesnt say that if you have initiative, you must play an enhancement. it says you can play an enhancement, one of multiple courses of action you can do with initiative. if a cbn/cbi card is stopping you from following up with an enhancement, then thats simply one restriction you are not allowed to with your initiative. playing an enhancement means you have initiative, but having initiative does not always mean you can play an enhancement. just like all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.
I stand by my logic.
This question came up when Priests was released (I believe I was the one that asked the question actually) and the ruling is/was that you can only use Silver Trumpets in a situation where you could use an enhancement that had the same ability (disregarding scenarios where the enhancement would be negated but the artifact wouldn't).
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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So you stand by a four-year-old ruling that essentially amounts to "you can only do something if you could do it with an Enhancement?"
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perhaps that logic needs to be re-evaluated since there is no hard evidence whatsoever linking playing an enhancement with whether or not you have initiative. the rulebook says you have initiative when you are losing the battle. are you losing the battle when a cbi/cbn battle winner is played? yes. does it say there is a special rule that states you do not have initiative in these situations if you are unable to play an enhancement? no. seems pretty clear to me.
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so B AND C AND D are allowed.
This statement would have to be fit into a completely different equation than the one you've been using thus far. The conditional goes between the antecedent and the consequent, not after the consequent. Initiative means you are allowed to play an enhancement, you are allowed to play a dominant, or you are allowed to activate a triggered artifact. The equation for that is: {A <-> [B or C or D]}. And, using this equation, even if not B is true, A can still be true.
That said, I still agree with what I thought earlier that if a CBI or CBN enhancement is removing your only priest from battle, you wouldn't meet the criteria of Silver Trumpets.
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Hey,
The rulebook says:
DETERMINE INITIATIVE, PLAY AN ENHANCEMENT, REPEAT - If you have a Hero(es) in the Field of Battle and your opponent has an Evil Character(s) in the Field of Battle, you need to check for initiative.
After a can't be negated Dungeon, you don't have a hero in battle, so there is no need to check for initiative so no one has initiative.
Not to mention that even if you do have initiative, you no longer have a priest in battle, so the condition of The Silver Trumpets isn't satisfied anyway.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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That line of arguing will get you nowhere. As we all know, being removed from battle doesn't actually remove you from battle right away.
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Agreed, if that was the case, NOTHING could be negated in a one on one battle, because the instant they leave battle, end of battle. Thats why Heavy Taxes cant be interrupted afterwards... but thats the situation that every type of character removing card would create. I strongly oppose that argument AND that statement to a degree, and I think battles should not end until one player has no more characters and cannot ADD anymore.
Furthermore, your line of argument makes battle extenders such as Unknown Nation, Gates of Hell, Madness, and site guard cards into utter trash.
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As we all know, being removed from battle doesn't actually remove you from battle right away.
Except that a CBI/CBN enhancement DOES remove you right away, since you can't interrupt it. So, for the purposes of Silver Trumpets, you may then have initiative to do other things (like use dominants, other artifacts, or fortresses) but you don't have a Priest and thus you can't use Trumpets.
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Hey,
The battle ends when both players agree they are done playing cards in battle or when an end the battle ability is used. Initiative and having characters in battle has nothing to do with deciding when the battle ends.
Unknown Nation, Gates of Hell, and Dominants can be played in battle even if you don't have initiative. I don't understand how they relate to this discussion at all.
I play Dungeon on your only hero in battle. Silver Trumpets then must be used before or after Dungeon is carried out. Silver Trumpets cannot be used before Dungeon is carried out, because that would interrupt Dungeon and Dungeon cannot be negated so you can't interrupt it. Silver Trumpets cannot be used after Dungeon because at that point you no longer have a priest in battle. So you can't use Silver Trumpets at all.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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You still have initative though, you just cant interrupt the card thats killing you. I still believe that you can use that initative to TRY and interrupt the battle with silver trumpets, fail to do so, and then proceed to band in another hero.
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You still have initative though, you just cant interrupt the card thats killing you. I still believe that you can use that initative to TRY and interrupt the battle with silver trumpets, fail to do so, and then proceed to band in another hero.
But once you can't interrupt your Priest is gone and you no longer meet the trigger for Trumpets.
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What in the rulebook/REG says that you don't have initiative after a CBN removal card is played?
GENERALLY it is played as though you don't because you normally can't do anything, because the only cards you could have played are interrupts. However, this card does MORE than just interrupt, and the second effect would technically allow you to extend the battle.
So, prove to me where it says in the reg, that if a CBN ability removes my hero from battle, I absolutely do not have initative.
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You DO have initiative, but not a Priest.
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What is stopping me from TRYING to interrupt a CBN card using an ITB card before my priest dies?
Its like playing deluge with an immune character in battle. You cant target him, but you can target everything else, why wouldn't an ITB ability be allowed to try and activate, but fail to interrupt the removal ability?
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Because even if you interrupt everything but the removal, it still removes your Priest and you still don't meet Trumpet's trigger?
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You have special initiative because you are being removed (and regardless of what anybody or nobody says, the current rules do not make any provision for whether or not the removing ability can be interrupted when determining whether you have special initiative). Silver Trumpets has a trigger that activates when you have initiative and a Priest in battle. Clearly, when Silver Trumpets activates, your character is still in battle, otherwise you would not be able to interrupt a normal battle-winner (who would you play the Enhancement on otherwise?). Silver Trumpets is the only card in the game that has an ability that can be triggered by special initiative that does not necessarily require an Interrupt to carry out the rest of its ability.
During the window in which you would be able to play an Interrupt if you were being removed by an Interruptable card, Silver Trumpets adds a Priest to battle. Following that action, the removal is carried out and you are left with the old EC against the new Priest, with Evil having initiative if it is a mutual destruction situation.
There is nothing in the current rules that contradicts anything I have just said. If it's different in the new REG, then fine, but the new REG isn't out yet.
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+1 polarius
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For what its worth I also agree with Polaris. That makes the most sense out of all the current rules and the current REG. Just my humble :2cents: