Author Topic: CBN and initiative (Read 5793 times)

stefferweffer · « **on:** January 18, 2010, 10:58:04 AM »

Does a CBN enhancement remove initiative? I'm specifically thinking about "The Name of the Lord", which states that if I have initiative I can remove my hero from the battle and place them in the fortress. What if they have played something like King Zed and Dungeon of Malchiah? Do I still have a chance to remove my hero from the battle?

Thanks.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #1 on:** January 18, 2010, 11:06:00 AM »

that is a good question. I have always played it that you do not gain initiative to interrupt with TNotL when a CBN removal enhancment is played against your hero in battle. (ex. zeddy+dungeon)

Gabe · « **Reply #2 on:** January 18, 2010, 11:07:18 AM »

Anything that is CBN or CBI does not give special initiative to interrupt or negate. That's all that special initiative is for so if you can't... well... you can't.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #3 on:** January 18, 2010, 11:07:25 AM »

I will have to agree with RTSmaniac. That makes sense to me.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #4 on:** January 18, 2010, 11:14:32 AM »

It doesn't matter anyway, because The Name of the Lord says that if you have intiative, "Interrupt the battle," and Dungeon cannot be interrupted in this case.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #5 on:** January 18, 2010, 11:21:51 AM »

My caution to this question is ...In what situation do other interrupt abilities besides those on enhancments gain "special initiative" such as those on fortress's, LS (future speculation), artifacts, sites, ect.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #6 on:** January 18, 2010, 11:26:47 AM »

You mean like this:

The Silver Trumpets

Type: Artifact • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: When your Priest has initiative during a rescue attempt, you may band a human O.T. Hero from your territory into battle or interrupt the battle and return your Heroes in battle to hand. May be used twice.

Master KChief · « **Reply #7 on:** January 18, 2010, 11:29:18 AM »

so in silver trumpets case, the interrupt battle part wont work...but would the 'band a human ot hero' part work against say zed/dungeon?

stefferweffer · « **Reply #8 on:** January 18, 2010, 11:50:50 AM »

What if instead I was in a FBTN battle against KOT? Why am I allowed to interrupt that battle and place my hero in The Name of the Lord? It just seems to me that Fortress abilities are different than cards that get played in battle. Am I making sense?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #9 on:** January 18, 2010, 11:54:34 AM »

Quote from: stefferweffer on January 18, 2010, 11:50:50 AM

What if instead I was in a FBTN battle against KOT? Why am I allowed to interrupt that battle and place my hero in The Name of the Lord? It just seems to me that Fortress abilities are different than cards that get played in battle. Am I making sense?

KoT (and other FBTN) only negate the abilities of characters and enhancements.

stefferweffer · « **Reply #10 on:** January 18, 2010, 12:00:53 PM »

Yes, but Zed + Dungeon only says that IT cannot be interrupted, not that the battle can't be interrupted. I guess it makes sense, it's just confusing. I guess my question was answered though. There is no initiative if a battle winning enhancement is CBN.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #11 on:** January 18, 2010, 01:11:57 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on January 18, 2010, 11:29:18 AM

so in silver trumpets case, the interrupt battle part wont work...but would the 'band a human ot hero' part work against say zed/dungeon?

I think the band part WOULD work. I think you do have initiative, just that you can't interrupt what has already been done. Therefore, your hero will be captured (or whatever), but you do still have the ability to band someone in.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #12 on:** January 18, 2010, 03:50:50 PM »

is banding someone into battle the same as adding to battle? can of worms i know...

i guess my question would be if an enhancment cant be interrupted, can you still interrupt the battle?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #13 on:** January 18, 2010, 04:28:18 PM »

"Interrupt the Battle" is not a generalization, it is defined in the rulebook and REG:

Interrupt the battle interrupts the following:

• Your opponent’s special abilities that are (1) causing you to be losing by removal (e.g., your opponent’s Net), or (2) causing a mutual destruction by mutual removal (e.g., your opponent’s King Zimri but not your own King Zimri).

• The last enhancement played in battle, as long as it was played by an opponent (e.g., your opponent’s False Peace but not your own Reach of Desperation).

• ALL ongoing special abilities (see Ongoing Abilities).

If none of these (that can be interrupted) are in the battle, then you cannot interrupt the battle.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #14 on:** January 18, 2010, 06:15:19 PM »

so that would mean that you cant band in with The Silver Trumpets, right?

Ironica · « **Reply #15 on:** January 18, 2010, 06:41:56 PM »

Quote from: RTSmaniac on January 18, 2010, 06:15:19 PM

so that would mean that you cant band in with The Silver Trumpets, right?

That's right. I asked about that a few months ago and was told that you couldn't band another hero if you have special initative by removal.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #16 on:** January 18, 2010, 07:14:13 PM »

But the Banding in Silver Trumpets is not contingent on the ITB, only the Withdraw is. You have initiative, why can't you band? Silver Trumpets says you can...

SirNobody · « **Reply #17 on:** January 18, 2010, 10:07:27 PM »

Hey,

The "special initiative to negate your own removal" is not given if the ability that removed you can't be negated.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #18 on:** January 18, 2010, 10:36:08 PM »

The problem here is that there are 2 ways of looking at this.

1st perspective:
If a player is losing, they have "regular initiative".
If they are losing by a special ability, then their initiative is limited to only playing negates or interrupts.
Therefore, "special initiative" is a subset of "regular initiative".
Therefore, if the special ability CBN, then they still have initiative, but can't play a negate or interrupt.
Therefore, they could still use Silver Trumpets to band in using their regular initiative.

2nd perspective:
If a player is losing by the numbers, they ONLY have "regular initiative".
If a player is losing by special ability, they ONLY have "special initiative" to play negates or interrupts.
Therefore, "special initiative" is completely separate from "regular initiative".
Therefore, if the special ability is CBN, then they have NO initiative at all.
Therefore, they could NOT use the Silver Trumpets to band in at that point.

Can anyone prove that one of these perspectives is right and the other wrong?

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #19 on:** January 18, 2010, 10:46:22 PM »

If Special Initiative is not a subset of Regular Imitative, TNotL and Silver Trumpets only work when you have Initiative, as neither of those cards say anything about when you have "special initiative."

Master KChief · « **Reply #20 on:** January 18, 2010, 10:50:21 PM »

i view silver trumpets' band/add to battle ability in the same vein as grapes/unknown nation/gates of hell. the opponent can zed/dungeon you, but you can still use grapes on zed because the battle is still not yet over. the opponent can discard your evil character with aotl, but you can still use nation/gates to add an evil character to battle.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #21 on:** January 18, 2010, 10:57:43 PM »

with MKC.

I see it as the following. You are being losing and have initiative. However, we just default to the battle ending because interrupts cannot stop the CBN removal. However, if you use Silver Trumpets, it does this:

Tries to interrupt the battle, but fails to interrupt the enhancement that is killing my hero. It then continues on to simply add another hero to battle, and the battle continues.

It really is no different than using Gates of Hell. Neither can stop the CBN enhancements, but both should be able to add a character to battle and continue the fight.

Master KChief · « **Reply #22 on:** January 18, 2010, 11:06:16 PM »

i agree, there is nothing in the rulebook/reg that suggests a person does not still have initiative. however, it does say how a person is given initiative:

Quote from: REG

Initiative
A player with initiative may play the next enhancement. Initiative is always given to the player who is losing the current battle. The losing player cannot pass initiative.

When there is a stalemate or a mutual destruction, the player who did not play the last card has initiative, but he must pass initiative if he does not play a card.

which does blanket cbi/cbn abilities. just because there are very rare situations where the battle does default to the end of battle after a cbi/cbn battle winner has been played does not mean the losing player still does not have initiative.

browarod · « **Reply #23 on:** January 18, 2010, 11:08:57 PM »

The only problem I see with Lamborghini's reasoning is that Silver Trumpets says "when your Priest has initiative." If it can't interrupt a CBN enhancement, then once the enhancement finishes you no longer have a Priest to target and Silver Trumpets can't be used, regardless of current battle status.

SirNobody · « **Reply #24 on:** January 19, 2010, 01:01:05 AM »

Hey,

You can only use The Silver Trumpets at a time that you could use an enhancement that had the same ability as The Silver Trumpets. That's how it's always been ruled.

Quote from: Master KChief on January 18, 2010, 11:06:16 PM

Quote from: REG
Initiative
A player with initiative may play the next enhancement.

If your only character in battle has just been captured by Dungeon (on King Zed) you cannot play the next enhancement. Based on that REG quote, if you can't play an enhancement, then you don't have initiative.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

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Author Topic: CBN and initiative (Read 5793 times)

Ironica

Lamborghini_diablo

browarod