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I vaguely recall that discussion, but I'd have to see it again to remember where the difference lies.
In a similar question a while ago, (EC A banding to EC B who then CBN bands to EC C) it was ruled cascade doesn't stop at the first CBN and keeps going past it. By that logic the only thing left in this battle would be Harlot and a negated Horses. Why is this situation different?
Quote from: Kevinthedude on June 28, 2018, 02:10:05 PMIn a similar question a while ago, (EC A banding to EC B who then CBN bands to EC C) it was ruled cascade doesn't stop at the first CBN and keeps going past it. By that logic the only thing left in this battle would be Harlot and a negated Horses. Why is this situation different?Well, I agree that you shouldn't be able to Negate past a CBI or CBN ability, but it's probably being ruled otherwise right now. (The fact that an Elder agreed here supports my argument that it is most intuitive )Regardless, Swift Horses' Play ability is CBI, so Unified Language would stay in battle as well no matter what.
Quote from: Josh on June 28, 2018, 02:34:07 PMQuote from: Kevinthedude on June 28, 2018, 02:10:05 PMIn a similar question a while ago, (EC A banding to EC B who then CBN bands to EC C) it was ruled cascade doesn't stop at the first CBN and keeps going past it. By that logic the only thing left in this battle would be Harlot and a negated Horses. Why is this situation different?Well, I agree that you shouldn't be able to Negate past a CBI or CBN ability, but it's probably being ruled otherwise right now. (The fact that an Elder agreed here supports my argument that it is most intuitive )Regardless, Swift Horses' Play ability is CBI, so Unified Language would stay in battle as well no matter what. UL would remain in battle but Nergal wouldn’t as UL’s ability is cascade negated.
I agree; I don't like that this is how cascade works but the REG says " all of the negateable effects that can be traced back to the negated ability are cascade negated" and IMO Horses, UL, and Nerg definitely fall under that.
Quote from: Kevinthedude on June 28, 2018, 02:52:58 PMI agree; I don't like that this is how cascade works but the REG says " all of the negateable effects that can be traced back to the negated ability are cascade negated" and IMO Horses, UL, and Nerg definitely fall under that.But UL can't be traced back to The Harlot's ability any more than Swift Horses can. Play abilities are CBI. UL stays in battle.The rules might say that UL is negated, but they can't possibly say that UL goes back to hand or deck, since it was put in play via a CBI ability.
Cascade negate should not hop any CBN or CBI ability. Those abilities happened and everything after them is a result of them. Therefore no longer tied to the original ability. By the logic used for it to be able to hop then we should just negate the 1st card in battle every time we are being removed because it will make its way to the removing enhancement and negate 4, 5 ,6 cards along the way by hopping CBN/CBI status and that is not intuitive. Negates should stop at the first CBN/CBI ability they come to because that ability stays and everything after is a result and tied to that ability.
Negates should actually just stop at the card they target, period. I don't think you'll find convincing people cascade negate is unintuitive, the hard part is convincing people to break the status quo.
Status quos can be broken with sound, logical reasoning and thorough analysis. One thing's for sure, simply talking about it won't make it happen any faster
Quote from: Kevinthedude on June 29, 2018, 10:28:24 AMNegates should actually just stop at the card they target, period. I don't think you'll find convincing people cascade negate is unintuitive, the hard part is convincing people to break the status quo.I'm going to try and do the appropriate research to see what drastic changes (if any) would result if we changed the definition of Negate to "Undo the ability" with no cascade effects. Not sure where I'll find the time though (3 kids will do that to you). I'm not sure what your schedule looks like, but I've seen that you are a big proponent of this change in other posts as well. Maybe you'd be able to do some preliminary fieldwork and send your findings my way? Status quos can be broken with sound, logical reasoning and thorough analysis. One thing's for sure, simply talking about it won't make it happen any faster
I played for 7-8 years before I even learned that cascade existed. Negates only negating what they target was just how I and my group played and it was fine. The main noticeable difference is that mass banding strategies are slightly harder to disrupt since negates don't send them all tumbling down but there are plenty of anti banding cards in the game now and with how popular chump strategies are becoming I don't think making classic banding stronger will do anything but increase defense diversity.
Quote from: Kevinthedude on June 29, 2018, 11:50:31 AMI played for 7-8 years before I even learned that cascade existed. Negates only negating what they target was just how I and my group played and it was fine. The main noticeable difference is that mass banding strategies are slightly harder to disrupt since negates don't send them all tumbling down but there are plenty of anti banding cards in the game now and with how popular chump strategies are becoming I don't think making classic banding stronger will do anything but increase defense diversity.One of the reasons that mono Red is so weak is that almost all of their banding heroes are completely negatable. You block with Abaddon, or you play Plot to Kill/Blasphemies, boom. Whole banding chain exploded (and you lose all other potential benefits as well, such as Ishmaiah's Draw, etc.). Plus, Scattered is still a thing.This would also weaken "Negate + Remove" abilities, but I'm fine with that - they are already really strong, especially ones like MLaMG, Plot to Kill, Anthropophobia, Blasphemies, etc. that can function as either a Negate or a battlewinner. That flexibility makes them strong enough - no reason to let them cascade things too.
