Author Topic: Carry Out Abilities Completely and How it Relates to Negates (Read 1699 times)

happyjosiah · « **on:** July 30, 2009, 09:52:21 AM »

I've posted several questions lately that all seem to pertain to this one thing I must not have a good handle on.

When you play an enhancement, it's ability must be carried out completely before anything else can happen, even dominants. If I interrupt, draw three, and play next, you can't do stuff to me while I'm drawing. If I play a card that makes you discard a card from your hand, and the only card in your hand is a negate, you cannot play it. It is discarded before you get the chance to use it as an interrupt, even if you would have initiative.

This concept seems inconsistent with negating in general. For example, if I play Wrath of Satan to discard all heroes in play, if it's ability carries out completely before a negate can be played, there will be no hero to play a negate on, and (short of something like Covenant with Noah) I can't see how you could ever interrupt this.

Obviously I am misunderstanding something about the timing here, but it just seems very contradictory. SOME abilites carry out fully before interrupt, others don't, near as I can tell. If this is the case: 1. Where is that in the rules? and 2. Which ones are which?

Any help on this matter is appreciated.

The Schaef · « **Reply #1 on:** July 30, 2009, 10:05:48 AM »

All abilities carry out fully, negating your own removal from battle is the exception, not the rule.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #2 on:** July 30, 2009, 10:13:25 AM »

Quote from: REG>Instant Abilities > Interrupt or Negate Last

How to Use

An interrupt or negate card must be played during the Battle Phase. Interrupt cards can only be played if the player has initiative. Initiative may be passed back to you if the character(s) being discarded, captured, or placed back in your hand put you in a situation where you are not winning. An interrupt cannot undo a prevent command if the prevent is preventing the interrupt.

This passage should help. It might not make intuitive sense, but it is the reason why interrupt/negate cards were made. If a losing character had to wait until he was already out of the battlefield to negate an enhancement, negation cars would be fairly pointless.

The bolded phrase is why the answer to your question about the white and blue hero is what it is. Since you are not winning without the blue hero when you are vs. the 8/8, you may use a blue interrupt. Since you are winning without the blue hero vs. the 4/4, you may not use a blue or a white interrupt. If you do gain initiative later to interrupt, the blue hero is long gone, so you cannot use a blue interrupt.

I agree, it can be confusing. But as Schaef pointed out, removal from battle is the exception to the rule. Discarding a negate card from hand does not cause you to be losing by removal, so it doesn't apply.

Hope that helps.

happyjosiah · « **Reply #3 on:** July 30, 2009, 10:23:15 AM »

Okay, well that's concise enough. Might be a good thing to add to the rulebook.

"Special abilities, except those that would remove your last character from battle, must be carried out completely before any other cards can be played. In the case of an ability that would remove your last character from battle, you get a chance to interrupt before this happens."

Notice I added "last character" because of my confusion with the banding question.

Based on this, it also seems that there are cases where Deafening Spirit cannot be negated.

EXAMPLE:

Rescue attempt with Lois, 2/2 purple.
Block with Mary's 7 Demons, 7/7 orange.

Lois plays Authority of Christ to discard all heroes in play. This does not carry out completely, because Mary's 7 Demons is the only EC in battle. So the orange player gets a chance to negate.

He plays Deafening Spirit which negates AoC and then becomes an evil character. This carries out completely, because it is not causing Lois to be taken out of battle. Lois now has initiative by the numbers, but Five Smooth Stones (negate the last enhancement) is ineffective because Deafening Spirit is no longer an enhancement.

COUNTER EXAMPLE (in which deafening spirit CAN be negated):

Rescue attempt with King Saul 10/10 purple.
Block with Mary's 7 Demons, 7/7 orange.

The orange player has initiative and plays Following Demons to capture King Saul. This does not carry out fully as King Saul is the only hero in battle and must be given a chance to interrupt. He plays Five Smooth Stones to negate Following Demons.

Now is is the orange player's initiative again, and he plays Deafening Spirit to negate Five Smooth Stones. However, this time, Deafening Spirit does not carry out completely and CAN be negated as this causes Following Demons to take effect again, thus again causing the last hero in battle (King Saul) to be removed. He can play something like Reach of Desperation at this time.

Do I have it now?
(Thanks for reading the wall of text)

The Schaef · « **Reply #4 on:** July 30, 2009, 10:36:48 AM »

I'm not 100% sure it is ONLY on the last character out but that might just be from playing loosey-goosey with interrupts.

What I can tell you is that Deafening Spirit can't be interrupted (as an Enhancement) because it becomes an Evil Character. Negating an Enhancement at that point will do nothing. In the situation you're describing, it won't much matter anyway since you're 98% likely just losing by numbers and can play whatever you want in retaliation. Like the one place it will bite you is in a negate chain, where they beat you, you negate, they play DS, now you're stuck with the losing ability from three cards back.

I'll tell you what CAN work against the card, is FBN cards, because that will negate the DS Evil Character.

happyjosiah · « **Reply #5 on:** July 30, 2009, 10:39:56 AM »

Thanks guys, that helps a lot.
Schaef, just to be clear, are you saying that negating an enhancement NEVER works on Deafening Spirit, even in the second example I gave?

The Schaef · « **Reply #6 on:** July 30, 2009, 11:11:26 AM »

Since Deafening Spirit is an Evil Character, you could not interrupt THAT card.

Since Following Demons is still causing you to lose by removal, Reach can be played to interrupt THAT ability and do your thing.

happyjosiah · « **Reply #7 on:** July 30, 2009, 11:13:30 AM »

Quote from: The Schaef on July 30, 2009, 11:11:26 AM

Since Deafening Spirit is an Evil Character, you could not interrupt THAT card.

Since Following Demons is still causing you to lose by removal, Reach can be played to interrupt THAT ability and do your thing.

You're the man Steve, thanks much!

Cactus Game Design Message Boards

News:

Author Topic: Carry Out Abilities Completely and How it Relates to Negates (Read 1699 times)

happyjosiah

Carry Out Abilities Completely and How it Relates to Negates

The Schaef

Re: Carry Out Abilities Completely and How it Relates to Negates

Professoralstad

Re: Carry Out Abilities Completely and How it Relates to Negates

happyjosiah

Re: Carry Out Abilities Completely and How it Relates to Negates

The Schaef

Re: Carry Out Abilities Completely and How it Relates to Negates

happyjosiah

Re: Carry Out Abilities Completely and How it Relates to Negates

The Schaef

Re: Carry Out Abilities Completely and How it Relates to Negates

happyjosiah

Re: Carry Out Abilities Completely and How it Relates to Negates