Author Topic: Captured Hero vs Discard (Read 5828 times)

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #25 on:** November 30, 2009, 01:55:32 AM »

Quote

(4) a character that was discarded at some previous point during the current turn.

Right - And Characters reset to face value in the discard pile, so character 'A' which was a captured character is not reset in the discard pile to just your plain-jane character. Which means that it now qualifies as a character discarded at a previous point - so condition 4 evaluates as true and you can heal it.

Arch Angel · « **Reply #26 on:** November 30, 2009, 11:01:55 AM »

But, when it was discarded it was NOT a character, it was a CAPTURED character. There's a difference.

3-Liner And Bags Of Chips · « **Reply #27 on:** November 30, 2009, 11:07:05 AM »

Quote from: Arch Angel on November 30, 2009, 11:01:55 AM

But, when it was discarded it was NOT a character, it was a CAPTURED character. There's a difference.

Even though it wasn't when it is discarded, it is when it is in the discard pile. It resets and then you can heal it the same turn.

SirNobody · « **Reply #28 on:** November 30, 2009, 03:13:07 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: 3-Liner And Bags Of Chips on November 30, 2009, 11:07:05 AM

Even though it wasn't when it is discarded, it is when it is in the discard pile. It resets and then you can heal it the same turn.

You can only heal it if it's healable. To be healable it has to be discarded as a hero. It wasn't discarded as a hero, so it's not healable, so you can't target it with a healing ability.

Also, characters retain any gained or altered affects when they are healed. So if I'm set aside with Worship of Milcom become 1/1 am discarded then healed, I'm still 1/1. If I'm gathered, get discarded then healed, I'm still gathered. I've I'm gold shielded to silver, I get discarded then healed I'm still silver. So assuming you could heal a discarded captured character (which I still think you can't) wouldn't it return to being a captured character after it's healed? In which case you effectively healed a captured character, which isn't what healing cards do.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #29 on:** November 30, 2009, 03:52:30 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on November 30, 2009, 01:21:04 AM

Healed characters don't keep their gained abilities.

Instant Abilities > Restore Life, Heal, or Release > How to Use

Healing cards may be activated on any character in play (e.g., territory) of matching brigade color. They may target any card being discarded or subject to a poison or disease special ability, regardless of brigade color. The healing effect is instant, not delayed. You can play a healing enhancement at any time to restore a character sent to the discard pile at any previous time during the turn (e.g., Draw Phase or Preparation Phase). The discarded character may come from battle, a territory, a set-aside area, or from a draw pile (e.g., Confusion). Cards being discarded can be healed on the way to the discard pile. Cards being discarded from anywhere may be healed at any point during that turn. Characters discarded on a previous turn cannot be healed. A healed card is immediately placed in the owner’s territory; they retain all their abilities.

re⋅tain /rɪˈteɪn/ [ri-teyn]

–verb (used with object)

1. to keep possession of.
2. to continue to use, practice, etc.: to retain an old custom.
3. to continue to hold or have: to retain a prisoner in custody; a cloth that retains its color.
4. to keep in mind; remember.
5. to hold in place or position.
6. to engage, esp. by payment of a preliminary fee: to retain a lawyer.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I only can rule based on the REG. The REG says retain. Nowhere in the definition of retain does it say to take back something that was taken away. Retain means that it was never taken away in the first place.

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Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on November 29, 2009, 11:11:08 PM

Then you can never heal anything - because everything happens instantly ...

Instant Abilities > Discard or Remove > Clarifications

• There is no distinction between “instantly discarded”, “being discarded”, and “about to be discarded.”

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #30 on:** November 30, 2009, 04:02:59 PM »

Right, I agree with you and your REG quote - I was refuting your point about the heroes 'About to be discarded'.

SirNobody · « **Reply #31 on:** November 30, 2009, 04:07:29 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on November 30, 2009, 03:52:30 PM

Instant Abilities > Restore Life, Heal, or Release > How to Use

You can play a healing enhancement at any time to restore a character sent to the discard pile at any previous time during the turn (e.g., Draw Phase or Preparation Phase).

I think that answers the question posed in this thread. A captured hero discarded by burial is not a "character sent to the discard pile" so it cannot be healed.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #32 on:** November 30, 2009, 04:12:29 PM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on November 30, 2009, 04:02:59 PM

Right, I agree with you and your REG quote - I was refuting your point about the heroes 'About to be discarded'.

My point was to answer Master K's question about the captured hero being discarded earlier in the turn, but not really being in the discard pile. The rationale is that "instantly discarded" (which is what happened when Burial was played) and "about to be discarded" are the same thing (game-wise). So, when the healing card heals a character that was "instantly discarded," it is the same as that character being healed before it was discarded (i.e. on the way to the discard pile).

That is how the "Purgatory" makes sense to me: a healing enhancement has the effect of making the targeted card never have actually been to the discard pile. That is why they retain their abilities, rather than reset.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #33 on:** November 30, 2009, 04:15:43 PM »

Well, I think thats what the question has evolved to Tim - Does a card in the discard pile retain the identifiers of how it got there? - If it does then you can't heal it - If it resets - then the heal card simply sees a discarded character and heals it.

Master KChief · « **Reply #34 on:** November 30, 2009, 04:43:40 PM »

just because heroes that are healed retain their abilities does not retroactively make it as if they never hit the discard pile; rather, its simply just that, healed heroes retain their abilities. 'purgatory' cannot be used as a logical solution to a problem, as there is no such thing.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #35 on:** November 30, 2009, 04:49:43 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on November 30, 2009, 04:43:40 PM

just because heroes that are healed retain their abilities does not retroactively make it as if they never hit the discard pile;

I would agrue that it does based on the quote just a few posts up that "instantly discarded" and "about to be discarded" are the same. That would not be logical, but it is nonetheless true.

For me, negating a "look at opponent's hand" ability is not logical, yet it still can happen (in the game).

Master KChief · « **Reply #36 on:** November 30, 2009, 05:03:03 PM »

i dont understand what your quotes have to do with the fact of cards hitting the discard pile. it just explains the different terminology of the word 'discard'. nowhere does it say that a healing card retroactively makes it so a discard never occured in a previous phase. if i discard a hero in a previous phase and i heal it in a later phase, it obviously physically sat in the discard pile until it was healed.

i would also argue its possible to negate an opponents knowledge of your hand: just ask them to forget what they saw.

Arch Angel · « **Reply #37 on:** November 30, 2009, 05:04:40 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on November 30, 2009, 04:07:29 PM

Hey,

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on November 30, 2009, 03:52:30 PM
Instant Abilities > Restore Life, Heal, or Release > How to Use

You can play a healing enhancement at any time to restore a character sent to the discard pile at any previous time during the turn (e.g., Draw Phase or Preparation Phase).

I think that answers the question posed in this thread. A captured hero discarded by burial is not a "character sent to the discard pile" so it cannot be healed.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on November 30, 2009, 04:15:43 PM

Well, I think thats what the question has evolved to Tim - Does a card in the discard pile retain the identifiers of how it got there? - If it does then you can't heal it - If it resets - then the heal card simply sees a discarded character and heals it.

According to cards such as Goods Recovered they do.

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Author Topic: Captured Hero vs Discard (Read 5828 times)

Red Dragon Thorn

Re: Captured Hero vs Discard

Arch Angel

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3-Liner And Bags Of Chips

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SirNobody

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YourMathTeacher

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Red Dragon Thorn

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SirNobody

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YourMathTeacher

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Red Dragon Thorn

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Master KChief

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YourMathTeacher

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Master KChief

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Arch Angel

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