Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Lamborghini_diablo on April 17, 2012, 07:57:45 PM
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Matt and I are having a discussion on Capture.
He is trying to find where in the rulebook it says a captured character is controlled by the player who's territory it is placed in. I went to look in the REG, and I honestly found nothing.
I'm 99% sure that captured characters count for the duplicate unique character rule for whoever is holding them, but I'd like some rulebook verification.
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If a character is in your territory, you control that character. I can't find anything in the REG, but that is the rule.
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except that control = own and have in territory cause if i controlled a captured character in the same was as exchange thru sws it would be broken thats why i need to see the rulebook. cause i agree they become ls in lob but i don't think there souls while in rc so i say that uniqueness applies to the owner of the card why should capturing limit me it should punish my opponet.
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Control and ownership are not the same thing. Control is when you are using a character (whether it be from a SWS transfer, capturing a character, using a CTB ability, etc). Ownership is when that character was in your deck when the game started. Terms like "your" imply both ownership and control, but the terms are still separate, with completely separate meanings. I'm not sure what the rest of your argument is though. Can you please try to rephrase it?
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my argument is that exchange abilitys specificallyt say control changes. all im asking for is written proof that capture does the same and i can't find it. i could care less one way or the other but i think we need to be clear cause of unique rules. aka i capture your samuel. why is it fair you can replay another copy and i can't play mine. also what happens if you play another copy and the original is released who chooses which samuel dies since its not coming in via exchange like auto etc.
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That's the current rule. So even if you have a Captured Daniel Hero, Nebu can't work. Also, u can't have a Unique character that is the same as a Captured Character in your territory.
You control Captured heroes in your territory. I'm not sure what happens if a Captured Hero is released and there is another copy in the owners territory...
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so then can i even capture someone if i already have them. can we get some definition on this what is aloud when please.
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so then can i even capture someone if i already have them. can we get some definition on this what is aloud when please.
Except that the rule against multiple characters is based on them being in your territory or set-aside, or added to battle if one is already there (or in your territory or set-aside). The rules are not based at all on ownership, but they are specific based on where the cards are.
So no, no definition of ownership would allow you to capture a character already in your territory or set-aside.
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ok so in other words under current rules someone who wants to play capture is punished if they have the same unique they can't capture and if they capture they can't play a copy for themselves. so essentially under current rules capture is the hardest to use ability in the game bravo. way to make a sa that is so stupid.
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Whoops, Ignore (hahaha) what I just said. I was on a different topic in my brain and it typed wrong.
Yes, you can (by current rules) capture that character. But it has nothing to do with ownership. You just have to discard one as normal.
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ok thats what i thought i was about to go bat crazy lol.
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ok thats what i thought i was about to go bat crazy lol.
Nope, no more crazy than we normally are at least around these parts :)
But again, it wouldn't have to do with ownership. Just control.
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whatever long story short i just wanna see a clarification on capture that says it switches control in the same manner as exchange abilitys like sws. thats all im looking for cause without clarification uniques should be limited until you clear a captured copy then you can replace it.
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also was just pointed out to me to the character gets placed in raiders camp and placed characters captured or not don't change control do they? really would love ELDERS to chime in here please.
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That's the current rule. So even if you have a Captured Daniel Hero, Nebu can't work.
False, a captured Daniel hero is not a Daniel hero, it is a captured hero, which is a different card type, thus it does not stop neb's ability
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That's the current rule. So even if you have a Captured Daniel Hero, Nebu can't work.
False, a captured Daniel hero is not a Daniel hero, it is a captured hero, which is a different card type, thus it does not stop neb's ability
This is correct.
Matt, you have at least three people, including two REPs, telling you that captured characters are under the control of the person who's Land of Bondage they're in. If none of the Elders opt to come in and confirm (or overturn) this, you have no choice but to take our word for it for the time being.
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yeah whatever wasn't that huge i'll just let it drop i was simply trying to find a little more crowd control for t2
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actually if there in raiders camp there not in my lob but
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It doesnt really matter. U still control them now. Control is anything in your territory, your side of battle or your Set-Aside area. I'd argue against that its no longer a Daniel Hero, it's a captured hero with a Daniel reference.
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I'd argue against that its no longer a Daniel Hero, it's a captured hero with a Daniel reference.
You can argue it, but that is specifically how the rules are in the REG.
It ceases to be a character and becomes a captured character instead (that is, Heroes become captured Heroes and Evil Characters become captured Evil Characters).
It ceases to be a character. It changes type to a captured Hero/EC. They are very different, and thus what Drrek said is correct.
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Actually, to hold its original name and to be a 'Captured Hero' it is still a Character. But it's still being treated as a LS too. It's why the Unique rule still happens.
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Actually, to hold its original name and to be a 'Captured Hero' it is still a Character. But it's still being treated as a LS too. It's why the Unique rule still happens.
If you want to argue that you can have a captured character and that same character at the same time, you'll have to take it up with the Elders. That's how it's been ruled.
However, it is also ruled (per the REG and rulings) that Captured Characters are not the same thing as Heroes and EC. "Daniel Hero is in play" means that it cannot be a Captured Daniel Hero. They are not the same thing.
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yeah what i guess im trying to say is it should be the person whose guy gets captured that can't replay them until they manage to "save them"
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yeah what i guess im trying to say is it should be the person whose guy gets captured that can't replay them until they manage to "save them"
While I understand that sentiment, the rule involves there being duplicates in your side of battle, territory, or set-aside. It is based on control, not ownership.
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and i contest if exchange on cards like sws is gonna exist in the game then capture should work diffrently otherwise we have 2 abilitys that do the same thing.
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and i contest if exchange on cards like sws is gonna exist in the game then capture should work diffrently otherwise we have 2 abilitys that do the same thing.
No they don't do the same thing. Capture abilities convert a character into a Lost Soul (or, in the case of demons, just move them). Additionally, by default, capture abilities move that converted soul into your Land of Bondage, but they don't have to go there - some abilities allow you to put them in your opponent's.
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except in the case of raiders camp where its placed there upon capture as a character not a soul ty
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Actually, to hold its original name and to be a 'Captured Hero' it is still a Character. But it's still being treated as a LS too. It's why the Unique rule still happens.
If you want to argue that you can have a captured character and that same character at the same time, you'll have to take it up with the Elders. That's how it's been ruled.
However, it is also ruled (per the REG and rulings) that Captured Characters are not the same thing as Heroes and EC. "Daniel Hero is in play" means that it cannot be a Captured Daniel Hero. They are not the same thing.
I have never seen this rule. And if this is true, then any card that notes to a 'Captured Hero' or anything captured, wouldnt work and neither would the Unique rule.
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I have never seen this rule. And if this is true, then any card that notes to a 'Captured Hero' or anything captured, wouldnt work and neither would the Unique rule.
The unique rule works perfectly because alignment doesn't affect a character's uniqueness (for instance both versions of King Saul).
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A Lost Soul has no name, so if it's no longer a Hero or a Character but a LS it has no name. It's name is Lost Soul.
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A Lost Soul has no name, so if it's no longer a Hero or a Character but a LS it has no name. It's name is Lost Soul.
A "Lost Soul" and a "Captured Hero/Evil Character" are different, and are governed by different rules. Captured characters (minus demons) share a lot of the traits that Lost Souls have, however, they are still different card types.
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So would a player be restricted from placing say, a sammy in their territory if they have a captured one in their LOB?
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So would a player be restricted from placing say, a sammy in their territory if they have a captured one in their LOB?
Yes.
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ok so they can't place him but they can still exchange him in and then choose to d/c the ls one ?
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ok so they can't place him but they can still exchange him in and then choose to d/c the ls one ?
Under the current rules, yes, I believe so.
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What I'm saying is that they are still characters but also treated as Lost Souls. Redoubter is saying that they are no longer characters and lose their everything. Just because it says treat as a LS doesn't mean its not a Hero. The card still holds its name, type, Identifiers etc. it just has a new status, Captured.
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What I'm saying is that they are still characters but also treated as Lost Souls. Redoubter is saying that they are no longer characters and lose their everything. Just because it says treat as a LS doesn't mean its not a Hero. The card still holds its name, type, Identifiers etc. it just has a new status, Captured.
The card does not retain its card type, and it cannot be targeted by its Identifiers, however, it can be "viewed" by them (so for instance, a card that said "return an Assyrian to deck" wouldn't work on a captured Assyrian Survivor, but ASA's ability could activate off of Survivor). "Captured Hero" and "Hero" are separate.
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A Lost Soul has no name, so if it's no longer a Hero or a Character but a LS it has no name. It's name is Lost Soul.
A "Lost Soul" and a "Captured Hero/Evil Character" are different, and are governed by different rules. Captured characters (minus demons) share a lot of the traits that Lost Souls have, however, they are still different card types.
They why did the early capture cards have the line; "Treat X as a Lost Soul"? This was removed to save space and because it was seen to be obvious, not because it stopped happening.
Deafening Spirit (Pi)
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Orange • Ability: 1 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: Negate and discard the last good Enhancement played this battle. You may treat this card as an Evil Character until the end of this battle. • Play As: Negate and discard the last good Enhancement played this battle. You may convert this card to an Evil Character until the end of this battle. • Identifiers: NT, Connected with Demons • Verse: Mark 9:25 • Availability: Priests booster packs (Common)
Was it ever decided on whether or not DS loses it's enhancement status when it becomes an EC? If so then a captured hero that is "Treated Like a Lost Soul" would cease to be a hero and then become a Lost Soul. It's rediculous to have the same phrase mean one thing on one card but something different on another card.
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Was it ever decided on whether or not DS loses it's enhancement status when it becomes an EC? If so then a captured hero that is "Treated Like a Lost Soul" would cease to be a hero and then become a Lost Soul. It's rediculous to have the same phrase mean one thing on one card but something different on another card.
I don't think this is a good example. DS changes based on its ability. A hero being captured becomes a Captured Hero by game rule.
What I'm saying is that they are still characters but also treated as Lost Souls. Redoubter is saying that they are no longer characters and lose their everything. Just because it says treat as a LS doesn't mean its not a Hero. The card still holds its name, type, Identifiers etc. it just has a new status, Captured.
He's not saying they lose everything. They lose one identifier and gain another. The one thing they do lose is that they are no longer Characters (and therefore no longer Heroes or Evil Characters) and they become Lost Souls (and therefore are a Captured Character). That is the only change. David is still David, even if he is a Lost Soul. There's no game rule that says you can't have a card that is both a Lost Soul and has the identifier "David".
If captured characters are still characters (by your reasoning), then they can be targeted by Haman's Plot, banded into battle, placed under deck by Invoking Terror, etc. None of these are true. Lost Soul and Character are mutually exclusive identifiers. Lost Soul and Captured Character are not.
If you can find a REG quote backing your statement above, then we can consider and discuss. Until then, it is just your opinion.
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If captured characters are still characters (by your reasoning), then they can be targeted by Haman's Plot, banded into battle, placed under deck by Invoking Terror, etc. None of these are true. Lost Soul and Character are mutually exclusive identifiers. Lost Soul and Captured Character are not.
That would not entirely be true, if captured characters were still characters, they would not be able to be banded into battle (because they are neutral, and not good or evil), and would not be able to be placed under deck by invoking terror (because it targets a human hero, and captured heroes are not heroes), but they would be able to be targeted by haman's plot.
Not that any of that matters, since captured character are not characters.
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ok now im confused is a captured hero in rc a character or not.
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I feel this discussion has shifted to a different question entirely. For clarity that should probably get its own thread.
Regarding the original question, would it be possible to get an elder to write up an explanation of how capture and control functions? Currently the REG says nothing about it, and it does make a difference when dealing with duplicate unique characters.