Cactus Game Design Message Boards

I'm not saying it would overcome CBN, I'm saying it would shut down a Protect that is while it's in play. Not that FBTN would destroy CBN.
I'm seeing 2 effects, 1 CBN the other is not. 1 is continueous and the other is a trigger. While in play is a trigger that is CBN the phase after it was activated. (Just like all triggers) the Protect is continueous and even though the while in play is CBN the Protect is not. The Protect can easily be negated by any card that would negate a Protect Ability or Character. This would be able to be negated no matter what phase it is in because it is not CBN.
This is what I see, it's just like with Deceving Spirit, his becoming a character is CBI no matter what, but not the rest of the Card.

I'm sorry, but that's incorrect.  The entire ability is CBN starting in the phase after it was activated.  Not just the trigger.

So in the case of Simon the Zealot, the protection IS CBN.  That's what we have been trying to tell you, and an Elder has confirmed.

I'm sorry, but there are not two different effects, only one being CBN.  The whole thing is CBN.  So you cannot stop it, even with a FBTN character with the current ruling.

The point of pushing the Character negate through territory was only for that. Right now, it doesn't make sense, because it's not 1 ability, it's 2 abilities worded like one.

You're missing the point:  It is not the words "while in play" that are CBN.  What is CBN is the continuous ability that is active "while in play".

Simon the Zealot (Di)

Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Red/Purple • Ability: 7 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: Negate and discard Rome and a N.T. Idol. First Strike. Protect your hand and deck from opponents' cards while this Hero remains in play.

The bolded part is CBN starting in the phase after it was active.  It is ONE ability.  ONE.  And, by game rule, it is CBN starting in the phase after it was active.

There is no reason to keep arguing this, because it has been ruled.  An Elder has explained it to you, and how this has been the rule for some time.  I'm very sorry, but you are incorrect in this.

I know, the problem is what effect it will cause to the game. It makes it easier to push it further to be just 'while in play' is CBN period, and what characters this ruling would effect making them unessisarily stronger.

Alright, I'm trying to understand...are you saying that you disagree with the game rule that is in place so that the (current, doubting it stays this way) Cap ruling would negate anything that has "while in play" to nerf their abilities a bit?

If that's the case, you're still going against game rule as it currently is, and you had been arguing with me that they are two different abilities and the protection must not be CBN, so I have no idea where you're coming from.

There is nothing to show that this (established) ruling that "while in play" is CBN will cause problems to the game...since it has been around a long while.  The Cap ruling (as it stands) changes things a bit, but that doesn't affect other rules currently in place.  There are no discrepancies right now that this ruling causes.

Just read Pol's comments on the first page, he was better at explaining it then I am Aparently.

Under that definition, that only supports my Arguement that the ability should be able to be negated, just like how I can negate a TC Enhancement in territory, since the effect is a continueous effect (which according to game rules for other continueous effects) can be negated at any time during the game (unless they are CBI/CBN) vs. Triggers, which can't be stopped the Phase after because that would be very bad for the game, and abilities that are done completely (effects that don't continue to the next phase) are the types of effects that should be CBN starting the next phase.

Hey,

Under that definition, that only supports my Arguement that the ability should be able to be negated, just like how I can negate a TC Enhancement in territory, since the effect is a continueous effect (which according to game rules for other continueous effects) can be negated at any time during the game (unless they are CBI/CBN) vs. Triggers, which can't be stopped the Phase after because that would be very bad for the game, and abilities that are done completely (effects that don't continue to the next phase) are the types of effects that should be CBN starting the next phase.

Other cards that have "continuous effects" generally abide by the default duration of "until the end of the current phase."  The game rule for their card type (Artifact, Site, Fortress) is what causes them to be active again in the next phase.  They "reactivate" at the beginning of each phase they are active because they are Sites, Fortresses, or active artifacts.

The ability on Blue Tassels for example ("Protect all characters from capture abilities. Prevent Unholy Writ.") if it were on an enhancement that was played during the preparation phase somehow, would end at the end of the preparation phase.  But it is on an artifact and not an enhancement, so when the preparation phase ends and the next phase begins the rules for artifacts causes the ability to "refresh" and last for another phase.

In effect, Artifacts, Sites, and Fortress have a separate activation and effect for each phase, so when you try to negate them, you negate their activation and effect in the current phase.  You do not and cannot negate their activation or effect in any previous phase, because anything that happened in a previous phase cannot be negated.

A character with a "while this character remains in play" effect on the other hand, has only one activation (when the character enters battle).  It does not "refresh" at the beginning of future phases, but rather the effect doesn't/didn't end after the previous phase so it's simply still in effect.  So if, during a future battle you try to negate that character "just for the battle" you run into a problem: when you negate an effect you have to negate all of the effect, since the character has only one activation and one effect that persists over multiple phases, the effect it is having during battle is the same effect it had during the previous battle, you can't negate one without negating the other because they are one in the same.  Since the effect from the previous battle is cannot be negated because it is from a previous phase, the effect on the current battle also has to be cannot be negated.

It would be a valid, alternative way of defining the rules to say that all abilities that have an effect over multiple phases "refresh" for each new phase and can be negated within any phase for that phase only.  But that is not how redemption defines the rules, and has never been how redemption defines the rules.  There are multiple ways that many, many rules could be handled.  It's not that one way is necessarily wrong and the other is right, but rather one is simply the way we chose to rule and the other isn't.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Forts and LS's have abilities that function differently. Their ongoing abilities have the by-phase refresh.