Cactus Game Design Message Boards

That's how it originally was supposed to be played if u go by the card directly.

I know it's not how it was intended to be played, but I'm saying thats what the card actually says, since the card doesn't limit to battle.

Quote from: megamanlan on May 07, 2012, 10:49:02 PM

I know it's not how it was intended to be played, but I'm saying thats what the card actually says, since the card doesn't limit to battle.

I understand that.  It's unfortunately just not new for the wording not to match the intention (won't name any cards to avoid downvotes....)

FWIW, I agree with you (kind of) about the technical reading of these cards, but it's moot because it will (likely) be fixed to again reflect the status quo (hopefully).

Ah...but which Status quo?

Hey,

Based on the discussion so far, I would recommend ruling that FBN characters DO negate characters and enhs anywhere in play (and that CotH will probably get an errata limiting him to characters and enhs as well).

It could end up differently, but that's my best guess on the conclusion at this point.  And with State tourneys coming up you deserve something to use for now

To add to what Prof U said, the following explanation has more or less been accepted by all of the elders involved in the private discussion on this topic.  I think it is safe to threat this as the official ruling.

FBTN negates special abilities on characters and enhancements in play, not just in battle.

That generally does not include "while in play" abilities.  An ability can only be negated during the phase in which it activates.  If it's ability persists after that phase it becomes effectively CBN.  So the "while in play" ability on a Simon the Zealot who activated on a previous turn is not negated by FBTN.  But a Simon the Zealot who activated during the current battle but was withdrawn to territory before the FBTN card is played would be negated.

The way we currently play placed enhancements like Herod's Treachery, is that once it's placed the "while placed" effect is active like an artifact is active, so it can be negated or interrupted during any phase for that phase, but it will kick back in at the beginning of the next phase if it is not discarded.  (This isn't currently explained in the REG and should be added to the place entry when we get a chance.)  So FBTN does stop placed enhancements during the battle phase but the placed enhancement kicks back in for the discard phase.

To go along with this ruling, we are giving Captain of the Host errata that matches what is currently listed in the REG as play as for Captain.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

In that particular case, I'm not sure that it would. I know that placed cards with ongoing abilities can be negated temporarily, but idk if "While remains in play" abilities are considered to be constantly activating like that. Logic tells me it's an ongoing ability, and it may very well be, but it could also be seen as an instant ability with a sunset.

Hey,

There are two types of abilities that last for more than one phase.

There are ongoing abilities that last until the end of the current phase and then reactivate at the beginning of subsequent phases as long as they remain in play.  These are Artifacts (and covenants/curses used as artifacts), Fortresses, Sites, some "while set-aside" effects and the "while placed effect on some cards with place abilities.  Because they reactivate at the beginning of each phase, they are always activated on the current phase and thus can always be interrupted or negated by a card that tries to target them.

And there are regular ongoing abilities that only activate once but whose duration extends beyond the end of the phase in which it is activated.  This would be abilities that include phrases like "until end of game" or "while this character remains in play" or "until discarded."  It also include Restrict abilities that default to lasting one round.  These abilities become CBN as soon as the phase during which they initially activated ends. 

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

This still doesn't make sense, because now Satan's Seat doesn't affect Simon then, why would'nt the effect be negated during the phase if they were negated? Because that ruling doesn't make sense to me.

Reread his post, he was saying that abilities that are ongoing but completed in a previous phase (like Simon) are effectively CBN in any phase after the one they activated in.  If you don't negate it during that battle and he survives, while he remains in play the protection is CBN.

If Satan's Seat were active (and working) when he entered battle, the effect would be negated as normal.  It just can't do it after that phase (just like any other card).

I'm still saying it doesn't make sense. I'm asking for an explaination of why 'While in play' abilities are not continuous (or at least if the Ability is Continuous why is it not treated as such?

I have no idea what you're trying to ask, I'm sorry.  I'll try to answer, but I'm not sure where you're trying to go with this.

"While in play" abilities are ongoing abilities.  However, by game rule they are CBN starting in the phase after the one in which they activated.

If that didn't answer your question, can you give an example?  If it's just that you don't like the rule, it's...the rule   Can't help you there.

Here's an example:

Opponent plays Simon and it's effect completes.
*Next turn*
I go to battle w/ TSA and try to negate him this phase.

Why does this not work like I see it should? I would see it as this is a continuous effect (just like Protect is) and should be treated as such. What I am trying to do is understand the ruling, because this makes no sense right now. I'd understand it if the 'while in play' part was CBN as in, if I negate it, that would be only for this phase, and then the next phase it comes back as normal.

I'm disputing the game rule and questioning the ruling. And currently this is an elder ruling that is fresh, not a game rule. There's a difference.

That wasn't them telling a game rule, they just recently came up with that. It was not defined before, and so was the extent of FBTN Cards.
If you read the posts before on the first page, that will explain it.

Here's the thing, before they were ruled as continuous effects (the Protect not the while in play) so the Protect would be negated that phase by a FBTN Card then because the while in play is CBN it would start up again during the next phase.
Prof U seemed to say before the ruling was made that this would be how it would be ruled until a consensus was made and this is what Pol argues for too.

The reason why I'm questioning this was because SirNobody's statement seemed to counterdict itself when he agreed with Prof U but then the ruling seemed to state differently.

Hey,

Quote from: SirNobody on May 09, 2012, 04:22:11 PM

There are ongoing abilities that last until the end of the current phase and then reactivate at the beginning of subsequent phases...some "while set-aside" effects and the "while placed effect on some cards with place abilities...
 
And there are regular ongoing abilities that only activate once but whose duration extends beyond the end of the phase..."while this character remains in play"

So you're saying that "while set-aside" works differently than "while in play"?  Of course these are different locations, but it seems like their duration clauses should work on the same principle.

I added "while set aside" to that list at the last minute and shouldn't have.  While set-aside functions like while in play, not like while placed.  Thanks for pointing out my mistake.

I'm disputing the game rule and questioning the ruling. And currently this is an elder ruling that is fresh, not a game rule. There's a difference.

This actually isn't a "fresh" ruling.  This is how it's been for a long time.  Apparently there were some players including an elder or two who thought the rule was different, so the official statement was made to clear things up.  The way FBTN interacts with placed enhancements has been ruled the same way for three years.  The way FBTN interacts with "while in play" abilities has been ruled the same way since 2001.

Here's the thing, before they were ruled as continuous effects (the Protect not the while in play) so the Protect would be negated that phase by a FBTN Card then because the while in play is CBN it would start up again during the next phase.

That was never the correct ruling.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly