Author Topic: UPDATE: Can You Play Dominants During the Draw Phase? -- Yes! (Read 6255 times)

Warrior_Monk · « **on:** June 12, 2014, 07:29:00 PM »

I've found threads that mention it, but they're old. I seem to remember this being a thing, but don't remember why. Is this a real rule, or am I making this up?

Redoubter · « **Reply #1 on:** June 12, 2014, 07:29:53 PM »

Real rule as far as I can remember. I think officially you can't play them in draw or upkeep? Couldn't tell you where to find it as a 'rule' though

whiteandgold7 · « **Reply #2 on:** June 12, 2014, 07:56:53 PM »

4th edition rulebook states:
Dominant: A lamb or grim reaper illustration located in the icon box identifies a dominant. A dominant can be played regardless of initiative or turn.

Not sure, I'll try the R.E.G. I have seen people get GoYS during the draw phase and play it right away, but technically I believe they were doing it during their preparation phase. Can you give me an example of why someone would use a Dominant During the Draw Phase?

The Draw Phase is defined as: You draw three (3) cards and add them to your hand. Lost Souls are placed in territory. For each Lost Soul you draw, draw another card.

Next is

The Preparation Phase - You may place any number of characters (cross or dragon icon) into your territory.

I cannot see a real reason to play dominants during the draw phase in the first place. Can you clarify?

Redoubter · « **Reply #3 on:** June 12, 2014, 08:02:07 PM »

Quote from: whiteandgold7 on June 12, 2014, 07:56:53 PM

I cannot see a real reason to play dominants during the draw phase in the first place. Can you clarify?

So you can Mayhem before they play anything down in Prep.

whiteandgold7 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 12, 2014, 08:16:27 PM »

From R.E.G. we have:
Dominant
A lamb or grim reaper illustration located in the icon box identifies a dominant. A dominant can be played at any time regardless of initiative or turn.
Draw Phase
The draw phase is the first phase of a player’s turn. A player must draw three cards from the top of his deck during his draw phase. Each Lost Soul drawn must be placed in that player’s Land of Bondage, and the Lost Soul’s special ability activates. Each time a player draws a Lost Soul, he must draw another card to replace it, until three cards except Lost Souls have been drawn. If no cards are left in a player’s deck, the game continues using the cards that player has.

I have read through the R.E.G. just now, and I do not see any other mention as to whether or not you can play Dominants During the Draw Phase.

whiteandgold7 · « **Reply #5 on:** June 12, 2014, 08:24:07 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on June 12, 2014, 08:02:07 PM

Quote from: whiteandgold7 on June 12, 2014, 07:56:53 PM
I cannot see a real reason to play dominants during the draw phase in the first place. Can you clarify?

So you can Mayhem before they play anything down in Prep.

Which would give each player six cards instead of eight? In my opinion that card would be a waste to be played during the draw phase, and I'm assuming that you mean during the initial draw phase as opposed to draw phase on turn 2 forward? Please clarify. I'm trying to understand the strategy. Other than drawing out additional lost souls (which if that's your strategy I understand that) during initial draw phase, I'm not sure I understand what would be the reason for playing this at that time. I think almost any other time could be a more opportune time to play this particular dominant.

Steven

Redoubter · « **Reply #6 on:** June 12, 2014, 08:30:27 PM »

Just to respond to your last post, Mayhem had to be errata'd because it was too strong on the first turn. Very powerful still, but even worse then.

If I have Mayhem and go first, I play down as much as I want. Then you go, draw your 3, now you are at 11. I Mayhem, you are -5 with fewer first turn options and I am + based on how many cards I laid down.

Even now, it is a very common play to throw it down after someone has made their start-turn draw to knock out their hand. It is a powerful play and is great for gaining card advantage. If you wait until they play cards, you get less of a card advantage.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #7 on:** June 12, 2014, 09:14:28 PM »

I mean, you can still Mayhem as soon as you hit Prep, I was just always told that Draw phase ends automatically as soon as you drew 3, and upkeep phase ended as soon as you resolved upkeep abilities, so there's no actual time to play cards because you don't control when the phase ends.

The issue is now there's a reason to play SoG in the draw phase, namely on the revealer or hopper to negate it.

Quote from: Redoubter on June 12, 2014, 08:30:27 PM

If I have Mayhem and go first, I play down as much as I want. Then you go, draw your 3, now you are at 11. I Mayhem, you are -5 with fewer first turn options and I am + based on how many cards I laid down.

Yeah, people could easily get a 9 card advantage (playing down 4 cards and taking away 5 of your opponent's). It was awful.

Minion of Jesus · « **Reply #8 on:** June 12, 2014, 09:18:00 PM »

In regards to playing it in draw phase later, if somebody is about to play SoG and NJ for the win and you see it coming as they draw it, you can slam Mayhem and shuffle their deck (that is, if Mayhem hits the table before your opponents doms). I won a multiplayer tournament this way.

Redoubter · « **Reply #9 on:** June 12, 2014, 09:25:31 PM »

Quote from: Westy on June 12, 2014, 09:14:28 PM

The issue is now there's a reason to play SoG in the draw phase, namely on the revealer or hopper to negate it.

This was specifically ruled against. You can do it to negate the soul if Hopper or Revealer is drawn in Prep, Battle, or Discard, but not during Draw or Upkeep. I can't find the thread right now, but there was an interesting discussion on that...anyone else know where it is?

Quote from: Minion of Jesus on June 12, 2014, 09:18:00 PM

In regards to playing it in draw phase later, if somebody is about to play SoG and NJ for the win and you see it coming as they draw it, you can slam Mayhem and shuffle their deck (that is, if Mayhem hits the table before your opponents doms). I won a multiplayer tournament this way.

If they were playing it in response to their own drawing at the beginning of the turn, it takes precedence over Mayhem. Just saying.

whiteandgold7 · « **Reply #10 on:** June 12, 2014, 09:28:34 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on June 12, 2014, 08:30:27 PM

Just to respond to your last post, Mayhem had to be errata'd because it was too strong on the first turn. Very powerful still, but even worse then.

If I have Mayhem and go first, I play down as much as I want. Then you go, draw your 3, now you are at 11. I Mayhem, you are -5 with fewer first turn options and I am + based on how many cards I laid down.

Even now, it is a very common play to throw it down after someone has made their start-turn draw to knock out their hand. It is a powerful play and is great for gaining card advantage. If you wait until they play cards, you get less of a card advantage.

Sometimes, but their are strategies that still exist where that is not the case, where you can get a more cards in your hand advantage by playing it later

Redoubter · « **Reply #11 on:** June 12, 2014, 09:30:37 PM »

Quote from: whiteandgold7 on June 12, 2014, 09:28:34 PM

Sometimes, but their are strategies that still exist where that is not the case, where you can get a more cards in your hand advantage by playing it later

While this is true on rarer occasions, they actually made a errata to a dominant to defuse that particularly OP strategy, and it is still the best time to play Mayhem, that's pretty much established.

If you never dealt with it pre-errata at tournaments, consider yourself lucky. The chances of overcoming FTM (first turn Mayhem) were very low when playing competitive opponents.

Chris · « **Reply #12 on:** June 12, 2014, 09:33:12 PM »

Here's a better example then: My opponent has Covenant with Death up, which cannot be negated. I draw Destruction of Nehushtan, and I want to play it immediately so I can play TC enhancements during my Prep phase. It's important to know whether this is legal or not. Assuming there isn't any specific rule on it already, I want to argue that dominants should be playable regardless of phase. It's cleaner to just say it that way.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #13 on:** June 12, 2014, 09:36:05 PM »

Quote from: Chris on June 12, 2014, 09:33:12 PM

Here's a better example then: My opponent has Covenant with Death up, which cannot be negated. I draw Destruction of Nehushtan, and I want to play it immediately so I can play TC enhancements during my Prep phase. It's important to know whether this is legal or not. Assuming there isn't any specific rule on it already, I want to argue that dominants should be playable regardless of phase. It's cleaner to just say it that way.

While it's not currently illegal, I 100% agree.

Redoubter · « **Reply #14 on:** June 12, 2014, 09:39:54 PM »

Currently, you could not do as described, Chris. I really need to find that thread though, I can't think clearly about where it ended up or what it was called

Master KChief · « **Reply #15 on:** June 12, 2014, 09:43:17 PM »

http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/new-son-of-god-and-the-hopper/msg509583/#msg509583

Quote from: SirNobody on June 08, 2013, 04:55:10 PM

Hey,

Quote from: Westy on June 07, 2013, 10:01:11 PM
I don't see why dominants shouldn't be able to be played in the draw phase if it's in response to an opponent's action. It does say the upkeep phase follows immediately after, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you can't play cards during the draw phase.

It's the same reason you can't play Harvest Time in response to your opponent's only remaining lost soul being underdecked with Hormah durring battle resolution. Like battle resolution, the draw phase (and upkeep phase) are "instant" phases, you do what must be done and move on.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #16 on:** June 12, 2014, 09:49:17 PM »

Quote from: Master KChief on June 12, 2014, 09:43:17 PM

http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/new-son-of-god-and-the-hopper/msg509583/#msg509583

Quote from: SirNobody on June 08, 2013, 04:55:10 PM
Hey,

Quote from: Westy on June 07, 2013, 10:01:11 PM
I don't see why dominants shouldn't be able to be played in the draw phase if it's in response to an opponent's action. It does say the upkeep phase follows immediately after, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you can't play cards during the draw phase.

It's the same reason you can't play Harvest Time in response to your opponent's only remaining lost soul being underdecked with Hormah durring battle resolution. Like battle resolution, the draw phase (and upkeep phase) are "instant" phases, you do what must be done and move on.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

I had almost forgotten about that thread. Gabe disagreed though and the REG was never fixed to say that dominants can't actually be played at any time.

Chris · « **Reply #17 on:** June 12, 2014, 09:58:45 PM »

That thread was extremely inconclusive. Maly states that the Draw and Upkeep phases are "Instant Phases" as though it's a fact, even though Gabe later in the thread asserts that the status quo is that Dominants can be played in any phase. Gabe also appears to draw a clear line where at least three Elders believe it should work the way Maly describes (Maly, Jordan, and Bryon, all of whom post in that thread), while at least one other Elder (Gabe himself) believes it should work the way Gabe describes. I'm honestly inclined to side with Gabe there. Not being able to play dominants in the draw or upkeep phases has felt like an unwritten rule for a while, but it's not in the rulebook or the REG, and the Elders themselves don't seem to have a consensus one way or the other. Given that that is the case, the fact that it is not an official, written rule anywhere leads me to believe that under the current rules, you can play dominants during the draw and upkeep phases. More importantly however, this is something the Elders and Rob should figure out before Nats this year.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #18 on:** June 12, 2014, 10:01:04 PM »

Question: is Dominant slapjack a thing then? While "Responding to your own action" isn't really a thing, that's the argument always used, but you can't really respond to an action from another phase. That's just silly.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #19 on:** June 12, 2014, 10:21:07 PM »

Quote from: Chris on June 12, 2014, 09:58:45 PM

Gabe also appears to draw a clear line where at least three Elders believe it should work the way Maly describes (Maly, Jordan, and Bryon, all of whom post in that thread), ... and the Elders themselves don't seem to have a consensus one way or the other. Given that that is the case, the fact that it is not an official, written rule anywhere leads me to believe that under the current rules, you can play dominants during the draw and upkeep phases. More importantly however, this is something the Elders and Rob should figure out before Nats this year.

The purpose of the Elder system is to make official rulings. If three Elders agree, then that is the official ruling.

Chris · « **Reply #20 on:** June 12, 2014, 10:28:58 PM »

Only if there's no dissent from any other Elders, which there was/is. I'm also fairly certain that three Elders agreeing without dissent is a made up rule as well.

Redoubter · « **Reply #21 on:** June 12, 2014, 11:02:12 PM »

Quote from: Chris on June 12, 2014, 10:28:58 PM

Only if there's no dissent from any other Elders, which there was/is. I'm also fairly certain that three Elders agreeing without dissent is a made up rule as well.

That would never work, because there will almost always be a dissenting opinion among any group of people, and the Elders are no exception (this has been shown many times in the past).

Gabe seemed to acknowledge that he was disagreeing with what was the consensus of the rest of the Elders who had given their opinion. He has said in the past he has not agreed with decisions that he still had to enforce (just like any judge in this game).

So him disagreeing does not necessarily throw this into limbo. Based on the way the other threads have gone, and the precedents set, I would say it is safe to assume that the ruling is as described earlier in this thread, unless we hear otherwise from the Elders. There is enough support for it at this point and not enough to indicate there is anything in flux.

We do need an official rule somewhere in the rules materials at some point, but that's another story.

Chris · « **Reply #22 on:** June 12, 2014, 11:08:30 PM »

The idea that three Elders agreeing on a rule change makes it official (which again, I'm fairly certain was just a suggestion made off-hand by Mark) was only if there was no dissent by any other Elders in that thread. Otherwise, rule changes had to be taken to the other side of the boards. That is my understanding of that system, as the original post where Mark suggested it (which I can't find) described. Furthermore, Gabe, in this post, said that he believes the status quo is that dominants can be played in the draw and upkeep phases, and that he's willing to fold on a rule change, but that it is not in any way official.

Edit: Further searching leads me to believe that the "three Elders" guideline is official, but that I'm correct in that there can be no dissent.

Master KChief · « **Reply #23 on:** June 12, 2014, 11:36:19 PM »

Do you have a source for the dissent clause. I do not recall that having an Elder disagree was part of the requirement, only that 3 elders must agree.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #24 on:** June 13, 2014, 12:07:29 AM »

Here is the official notice from Rob,

Quote

To help resolve ruling issues, the following people have authority to making rulings in the game. If at least two people on the list rule on an issue it can be read with a higher degree of confidence. Also, if one of these Elders post a ruling and states that the ruling was reached by consensus it can be understood to settle an issue.

My recollection is that both the "three elders in agreement" and "no dissent" were put forward as simple rule of thumb. If I recall correctly it was something like "if three elders are in agreement and none disagree then you can consider the ruling official." This was not put forward by Rob, and I do not believe two other elders signed on to it, so it is not an official ruling.

In any event having a disagreement between elders would strike me as being something less than the consensus Rob wanted to settle an issue.

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Author Topic: UPDATE: Can You Play Dominants During the Draw Phase? -- Yes! (Read 6255 times)

Warrior_Monk

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