Author Topic: Can you play Dominants during battle resolution? (Read 6956 times)

Gabe · « **on:** May 21, 2009, 11:25:31 AM »

Can a player use a dominant during battle resolution after a character has been discarded by the numbers?

Here are two situations that have occurred;

1) I choose the blocker. My opponent let's the blocking evil character die by the numbers. Now they want to play Christian Martyr to stop the rescue.

2) I block with a human evil character. That character dies by the numbers. Hormah and the only available LS are placed beneath my deck. My opponent wants to play Harvest Time to win a LS.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #1 on:** May 21, 2009, 11:32:50 AM »

Scenario #1 I know does not work (ruled by The Schaef for sure) as much as I dislike the Redemption-lawyer gotcha aspect of that ruling.

I'm not so sure about Scenario #2.

I would like to toss in my own scenario that occurs fairly often...

3) I block with an evil character. The character dies by the numbers. Can I play SoG/NJ to remove the only two LS from my Land O'Bondage to prevent a rescue?

The Schaef · « **Reply #2 on:** May 21, 2009, 11:42:01 AM »

1). The player must either kill the EC and let the Hero win, or kill the Hero and let the EC win. One of these actions will end the battle, and after that you can no longer affect the outcome.

2). An EC only dies by the numbers once the battle is allowed to end, so it's too late to HT out a new soul. You can always dump Hormah if an EC is killed mid-battle, though (e.g. Jephthah).

3). You can play the Dominants to prevent the rescue, with the understanding that you are doing it while the battle is still going on. Same goes for Burial, or Falling Away one of the souls you just rescued with the Dominant, or using Harvest Time afterwards. All of these actions take place during the Battle Phase, and only when both players have played all they're going to play, does the battle end and the EC actually die.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #3 on:** May 21, 2009, 11:49:07 AM »

Quote from: The Schaef on May 21, 2009, 11:42:01 AM

3). You can play the Dominants to prevent the rescue, with the understanding that you are doing it while the battle is still going on. Same goes for Burial, or Falling Away one of the souls you just rescued with the Dominant, or using Harvest Time afterwards. All of these actions take place during the Battle Phase, and only when both players have played all they're going to play, does the battle end and the EC actually die.

This was my understanding too. How I saw it ruled at Nats '08 was that if a person had actually physically moved their EC to the discard pile, then they could no longer play Burial, SoG/NJ, CM, etc. but instead had to give a LS. However, if the EC was still physically in battle, that they could play defensive arts like that.

Based on that I would assume that similarly, as long as the GC is still physically in battle, that a person could play an offensive dominant like HT if all other LSs disappeared for some reason (Hormah, SoG the shuffler, Burial, whatever).

The Schaef · « **Reply #4 on:** May 21, 2009, 11:56:06 AM »

That may be technically correct but I'm not going to lose any sleep over the actual sequence of moving cards about. We frequently play Falling Away on a LS still in Land of Bondage to symbolize giving over a LS and promptly taking it back.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #5 on:** May 21, 2009, 12:07:29 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on May 21, 2009, 11:42:01 AM

1). The player must either kill the EC and let the Hero win, or kill the Hero and let the EC win. One of these actions will end the battle, and after that you can no longer affect the outcome.

Just to be clear by "kill the EC" you mean "kill the EC by the numbers," correct? I can still play a dominant if the EC is killed via a special ability (e.g., Zeal for the Lord), right?

The Schaef · « **Reply #6 on:** May 21, 2009, 12:08:54 PM »

I am referring to the exact situation that was presented to me, EC is dying by the numbers and the player wants to use CM.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #7 on:** May 21, 2009, 12:54:01 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on May 21, 2009, 11:56:06 AM

That may be technically correct but I'm not going to lose any sleep over the actual sequence of moving cards about. We frequently play Falling Away on a LS still in Land of Bondage to symbolize giving over a LS and promptly taking it back.

Funny you should mention that based on the game that these questions all stem from

So are you saying it is technically correct that as long as my GC is physically in battle that I can play HT if my opponent lets their EC die and puts Hormah and their only LS on the bottom of their deck?

The Schaef · « **Reply #8 on:** May 21, 2009, 12:57:04 PM »

If they "let their EC die" in a way that brings the battle to a conclusion, then no, because the EC is dying at the end of battle.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #9 on:** May 21, 2009, 01:11:18 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on May 21, 2009, 12:57:04 PM

If they "let their EC die" in a way that brings the battle to a conclusion, then no, because the EC is dying at the end of battle.

But then there is that rule that says something like "discarded", "being discarded", "about to be discarded" etc. all mean the same thing. Therefore, doesn't Hormah kinda go to the bottom of the deck while the EC is "about to be discarded", in which case the EC is still there, and HT could still be played?

The Schaef · « **Reply #10 on:** May 21, 2009, 01:24:39 PM »

An EC is only losing by the numbers so long as the battle is going on. You cannot move Hormah without first discarding the character, and you cannot discard the character without conceding the end of the battle.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #11 on:** May 21, 2009, 02:35:05 PM »

So if i play DoU can my opponent play HT to get a ls?

The Schaef · « **Reply #12 on:** May 21, 2009, 02:43:57 PM »

Yes, because the ECs were removed by special ability. You also have the option to use Unknown Nation to bring in another EC after DoUing the old ones, if that somehow is useful to you.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #13 on:** May 21, 2009, 02:52:29 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on May 21, 2009, 01:24:39 PM

You cannot move Hormah without first discarding the character, and you cannot discard the character without conceding the end of the battle.

So does this mean that if you have a LS in Hormah (that the GC has access to), that you must give it to your opponent before putting Hormah on the bottom of your deck? It seems that giving the LS has to happen immediately upon the EC hitting the discard pile (even before a Burial can be played). Therefore, perhaps the LS has to be given before Hormah's trigger takes effect?

It just seems like there should be some sort of way to get a LS out of this situation. If you win the battle and have a dominant that pulls out a LS, then one way or the other, something should work.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #14 on:** May 21, 2009, 02:59:13 PM »

so i cant block and die by the numbers to shuffle the ls in hormah with out first giving the ls to the opponent? Is that what you are saying? Sounds right to me.

The Schaef · « **Reply #15 on:** May 21, 2009, 03:02:33 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on May 21, 2009, 02:52:29 PM

It seems that giving the LS has to happen immediately upon the EC hitting the discard pile (even before a Burial can be played). Therefore, perhaps the LS has to be given before Hormah's trigger takes effect?

Giving the Lost Soul is always the last thing that happens.

Quote

It just seems like there should be some sort of way to get a LS out of this situation. If you win the battle and have a dominant that pulls out a LS, then one way or the other, something should work.

There is. Blow up the Site. Use Son of God. Primary Objective.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #16 on:** May 21, 2009, 03:02:44 PM »

wait a sec. No it doesnt-ok
die bt#'s
shuffle ls and hormah
opponent plays HT
what happends?-i dont know...argh

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #17 on:** May 21, 2009, 04:22:25 PM »

Quote from: RTSmaniac on May 21, 2009, 03:02:44 PM

wait a sec. No it doesnt-ok
die bt#'s
shuffle ls and hormah
opponent plays HT
what happends?-i dont know...argh

According to what Schaef is saying, at that point your victorious GC just goes back to the territory and the LS that you just pulled out just sits in your opponent's LoB until you attack again the next turn.

SirNobody · « **Reply #18 on:** May 21, 2009, 06:32:01 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: BrianGabe on May 21, 2009, 11:25:31 AM

2) I block with a human evil character. That character dies by the numbers. Hormah and the only available LS are placed beneath my deck. My opponent wants to play Harvest Time to win a LS.

Mike Berkenpass and I discussed this exact scenario at nationals last year and the clear answer was no, Harvest Time does not work to win a Lost Soul. It is an unfortunate result of the inner workings of battle resolution and the way Hormah is worded, but it is what it is.

If you wish to get around this dilemma might I suggest discarding Hormah, stealing Hormah, or protecting the Lost Soul from being placed beneath draw pile (Faithful Servant promo and the Anti-Shuffler lost soul are two very effective means of accomplishing this).

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

The Schaef · « **Reply #19 on:** May 21, 2009, 06:33:15 PM »

Or play with a Philistine defense.

Er... I mean... oops.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #20 on:** May 22, 2009, 02:13:52 AM »

maybe this should be a general topic on battle resolution b/c this next question is a little off topic...
if my EC dies due to bt#s,and i bring in another EC due to Unknown Nation how is this different than playing a dominant

RedemptionAggie · « **Reply #21 on:** May 22, 2009, 03:21:16 AM »

If you die bt#s, you can't use UN to bring in another EC.

The Schaef · « **Reply #22 on:** May 22, 2009, 06:18:29 AM »

Aggie is correct. You either band the character to your EC who is losING, or you allow him to die by numbers by conceding the end of the battle.

crustpope · « **Reply #23 on:** May 22, 2009, 09:54:02 AM »

Quote from: BrianGabe on May 21, 2009, 11:25:31 AM

2) I block with a human evil character. That character dies by the numbers. Hormah and the only available LS are placed beneath my deck. My opponent wants to play Harvest Time to win a LS.

My opponents have used this against me all the time. You may have done this against me before. I know Soul Seeker has. I play babylonian Banquet hall or DoU to discard all LS and then they play HT to win a LS after they are all gone. Or I die by the numbers then play my Sog/NJ on a shuffler to protect the rescue and they play HT to pull out the hopper to rescue it.

I am VERY interested in the rulings on this use of dominats. The CM/AOTL dont really bother me because you aways assume those will be played sometime during battle. If it happens to happen after the battle is TECHNICHALLY over, oh well. you knew it was coming anyway.

But HT has limits on when it can be played (no LS in opponents land of bondage) so this one should be played according to its rules. If the battle is over can you play HT to get a LS?

The Schaef · « **Reply #24 on:** May 22, 2009, 10:12:10 AM »

Quote from: crustpope on May 22, 2009, 09:54:02 AM

My opponents have used this against me all the time. You may have done this against me before. I know Soul Seeker has. I play babylonian Banquet hall or DoU to discard all LS and then they play HT to win a LS after they are all gone. Or I die by the numbers then play my Sog/NJ on a shuffler to protect the rescue and they play HT to pull out the hopper to rescue it.

With the evil discards, the battle does not immediately end just because a character is (instantly) discarded. After a discard, you can play Unknown Nation or Madness to bring another EC in and continue your block. There is a lot of breathing room at the tail end of a battle to utilize specials on Arts and Dominants.

The technical order of resolution for your numbers example, is that while your EC is in battle but still losing, you rescue your LS to take them off the table, the opponent plays his HT, and you are still in a losing situation. The important thing to remember about being at a numerical disadvantage, is that numbers (generally) determine initiative, they do not instantly discard a character. A character down in numbers does not die until the battle is completely over and you are doing cleanup.

Treat SoG and Harvest Time the same way you treat CM or AotL. 98% of the time, you're basically throwing them out at the end of a battle to alter the outcome before you close the door. But for the 2% of the time when the order matters, it is important to remember that all of these cards are played during - not after - the battle phase has ended. Number-dead guys are discarded after - not during - the battle. You (technically) cannot declare the battle over and then Bury the LS, the proper order is that you bury, then your guy dies. Similarly, the opponent cannot play Harvest Time and tell you that it's too late to respond because you already let your guy die. HT must be played during the battle phase for this scenario, so your EC is still technically in-battle-and-losing, and you have an opportunity to respond, with Burial or DoU or whatever.

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Author Topic: Can you play Dominants during battle resolution? (Read 6956 times)

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