Author Topic: Can You Ignore/Be Immune to Gideon after Angel Under the Oak? (Read 7433 times)

SignoftheStar · « **on:** May 15, 2012, 06:15:24 PM »

Well, can you?

megamanlan · « **Reply #1 on:** May 15, 2012, 07:29:59 PM »

Yep, because those card affect u, not him so the Protect doesn't stop that, the battle just ends in a stalemate.

SignoftheStar · « **Reply #2 on:** May 15, 2012, 08:21:51 PM »

Well, it's something.

I still say it's broken.

megamanlan · « **Reply #3 on:** May 15, 2012, 08:34:48 PM »

Not really, because they still have to push their numbers over your's to win regardless.

Redoubter · « **Reply #4 on:** May 15, 2012, 08:36:24 PM »

Quote from: megamanlan on May 15, 2012, 07:29:59 PM

Yep, because those card affect u, not him so the Protect doesn't stop that, the battle just ends in a stalemate.

Well, it doesn't "end", it is a stalemate and initiative passes as normal until everyone is done playing enhancements. But Gideon doesn't stop you from gaining immunity, agreed.

Quote from: megamanlan on May 15, 2012, 08:34:48 PM

Not really, because they still have to push their numbers over your's to win regardless.

Well, except in this sort of case, when they're immune (or otherwise not being defeated).

SignoftheStar · « **Reply #5 on:** May 15, 2012, 08:40:39 PM »

If you get Iron Pan up, though...

megamanlan · « **Reply #6 on:** May 15, 2012, 08:43:30 PM »

Pan won't work against AuTO/Gideon. But according to the rules of Protect, their STR must win or else it's still stalemate.

Korunks · « **Reply #7 on:** May 15, 2012, 08:46:07 PM »

Pretty sure you can't ignore Gideon because you cannot target him. Just gotta find the ignore ruling somewhere around here.

SignoftheStar · « **Reply #8 on:** May 15, 2012, 08:48:58 PM »

No, that's just it.
You don't target AUTO/Gideon. You can't; it can't be negated. But with that up, your opponent can't ignore/be immune to him.

Redoubter · « **Reply #9 on:** May 15, 2012, 08:50:48 PM »

Quote from: Korunks on May 15, 2012, 08:46:07 PM

Pretty sure you can't ignore Gideon because you cannot target him. Just gotta find the ignore ruling somewhere around here.

That's correct, but can still gain the immunity. The battle-winning part of Ignore doesn't have the same effect on defense, so I don't believe that matters. If the roles were reversed (Good vs Evil), then yes you are right and it does make a difference.

Quote from: Luxumbra on May 15, 2012, 08:48:58 PM

No, that's just it.
You don't target AUTO/Gideon. You can't; it can't be negated. But with that up, your opponent can't ignore/be immune to him.

Sure they can, if the ability is CBN as well.

SignoftheStar · « **Reply #10 on:** May 15, 2012, 08:56:39 PM »

Admittedly, but what the heck has ignore or immunity that's CBN?

Korunks · « **Reply #11 on:** May 15, 2012, 08:59:36 PM »

Ok I have been gone for a while but when did the search function die?

SignoftheStar · « **Reply #12 on:** May 15, 2012, 09:02:50 PM »

It's been down for a while.

Obnoxious, right? Down on the REG, too.

Korunks · « **Reply #13 on:** May 15, 2012, 09:05:05 PM »

Well doesn't that just make being a host more "fun". Now we get to fly mostly blind. Yay!

Redoubter · « **Reply #14 on:** May 15, 2012, 09:06:13 PM »

Quote from: Korunks on May 15, 2012, 08:59:36 PM

Ok I have been gone for a while but when did the search function die?

In the REG? When they moved it. NEVER MOVE A PATIENT IF YOU DON'T KNOW THEIR CONDITION! THEY COULD BECOME PARALYZED!

Quote from: Luxumbra on May 15, 2012, 08:56:39 PM

Admittedly, but what the heck has ignore or immunity that's CBN?

CBN or CBP, because it would be a prevent.

How about (just for evil, since that's our discussion): Amaziah's Order, Balaam's Disobedience, Goliath's Armor, Magicians' Snakes, and Prince of Persia.

That's not counting cards that can make their enhancements CBN or CBP, or set-asides that grant immunity.

SignoftheStar · « **Reply #15 on:** May 15, 2012, 09:15:46 PM »

No, the ignore/immunity DOES have to be CBN to get past Iron Pan... right?

Redoubter · « **Reply #16 on:** May 15, 2012, 09:20:03 PM »

Quote from: Luxumbra on May 15, 2012, 09:15:46 PM

No, the ignore/immunity DOES have to be CBN to get past Iron Pan... right?

It's an ongoing negate, and it was on the table and in effect prior to the card being played, and therefore it is "preventing". CBP cards work (unless it activates mid-battle, in which case it becomes a negate after the fact, and CBP cards are hit).

SignoftheStar · « **Reply #17 on:** May 15, 2012, 09:21:55 PM »

Why is it that you do not interrupt the CBP abilities and then prevent it when you negate? Isn't it an interrupt first and a prevent second?

Redoubter · « **Reply #18 on:** May 15, 2012, 09:27:44 PM »

Quote from: Luxumbra on May 15, 2012, 09:21:55 PM

Why is it that you do not interrupt the CBP abilities and then prevent it when you negate? Isn't it an interrupt first and a prevent second?

If you see "interrupt and prevent" on a card, it means "negate", but that is not what negate means. Negate means "undo this effect". If it is worded in a continuous way (like a FBTN card), then its effect goes forward to all cards played after, and becomes a prevent.

Don't get hung up on the actual words. Prevent undoes things going forward, Interrupt temporarily undoes things that happened, and Negate can do both depending on its wording (although it is permanent, which Interrupt is not always).

The CB- is as I described above. It does not stop those specific abilities. It stops things that happen before, after, or always (P, I, N).

SignoftheStar · « **Reply #19 on:** May 15, 2012, 09:38:19 PM »

From the 10th Anniversary Rulebook:

In the definition of Negate:
"Negate is the same as 'interrupt and prevent' combined. A negate ability interrupts a special ability, and then prevents that special ability for the rest of the battle."

However, while we are here:

Also from the 10th Anniversary Rulebook:

"Cannot be prevented: means that the special ability activates when the card is played, REGARDLESS OF ANY NEGATE OR PREVENT ABILITY THAT IS ALREADY AFFECTING BATTLE. However, a cannot be prevented ability can be interrupted or negated after it is played."
Cannot be interrupted: is the opposite. These special abilities can be prevented before they are played. But if they are not prevented before they are played, nothing can interrupt OR NEGATE THEM after they are played."

and

"If a card states that it cannot be negated, then it cannot be interrupted, prevented, redirected, or negated."

So in conclusion:
CBI: can be prevented/negated before being played, cannot be interrupted/negated after being played
CBP: can be interrupted/negated after being played, cannot be prevented/negated before being played
CBN: cannot be interrupted/prevented/negate before/after being played

Sorry everyone. I needed that.

Redoubter · « **Reply #20 on:** May 15, 2012, 09:44:14 PM »

Quote from: Luxumbra on May 15, 2012, 09:38:19 PM

From the 10th Anniversary Rulebook:

In the definition of Negate:
"Negate is the same as 'interrupt and prevent' combined. A negate ability interrupts a special ability, and then prevents that special ability for the rest of the battle."

This is no longer true. Interrupt and Prevent = Negate, BUT Negate =/= Interrupt and Prevent.

It is its own ability currently, just think of it as an undoer

SignoftheStar · « **Reply #21 on:** May 15, 2012, 09:46:08 PM »

And when did this happen? Because doing that just makes everything that much more complicated.

Redoubter · « **Reply #22 on:** May 15, 2012, 09:47:08 PM »

Quote from: Luxumbra on May 15, 2012, 09:46:08 PM

And when did this happen? Because doing that just makes everything that much more complicated.

It doesn't actually, when you get right down to it. Interrupt temporarily undoes, while Negate just undoes. There is no temporary. They are different abilities and are defined differently because of it

SignoftheStar · « **Reply #23 on:** May 15, 2012, 09:59:04 PM »

...I suppose I get it.

Interrupt for a moment undoes what is done, prevent undoes what is not yet done, and negate permanently undoes what is done.

And, regardless of what it is doing the undoing, CBI cannot be undone once it is done, CBP cannot be undone before it is done, and CBN cannot be undone.

To which I must say:
"But the power of the Ring could not be undone."
Which is to say, The Ring cannot be negated.

Redoubter · « **Reply #24 on:** May 15, 2012, 10:02:54 PM »

Quote from: Luxumbra on May 15, 2012, 09:59:04 PM

Interrupt for a moment undoes what is done, prevent undoes what is not yet done, and negate permanently undoes what is done or yet to be done (depending on the card).

FTFY

But you put it very well

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Author Topic: Can You Ignore/Be Immune to Gideon after Angel Under the Oak? (Read 7433 times)