Cactus Game Design Message Boards

To be clear, both the other copy of TAS and Thad could have been discarded since I have more than 1 in territory, yes? Not just because Thad was captured via Writ and TAS was via his special ability?

Also, while I concede WatW is a similar situation, it also is an implied must ability, not may. I do not have the option of bringing in an EC, I have to. If it were may, then I would conclude we'd be in the same situation and you could not bring in a second copy of a unique character to force me to discard one.

What it comes down to is there is a rule that exists and exists for a reason.

What it comes down to is apparantly there are hard rules that can never be broken no matter what and rules that can be broken with a special ability.

Also, people have found a way to abuse the power of a card and its in question. Isn't that the same reason Holy Grail and A New Beginning (along with other cards) got errata'd was abuse?

Going off on a completely different tangent, errata is issued for cards that are too broken for play otherwise. If Sam is deemed to be too broken for play, then he should be errata'd.

Usually there are rules about special abilities so you don't break the game rules... those are called amended rules (well in real life anyhow =) )

But every single special ability in the game breaks a game rule. I cannot think of one that does not. This is why there must be a reference to point to which game rules can absolutely not be broken, even by special ability.

Actually your example of an SA rule breaks the first rule.

Because the first rule doesn't allow you to add any hero at will, only one hero once, banding breaks that rule because it brings in a second hero. 

A better example is this.

Normally I can't just grab my opponent's hand and look at it, but If I RA with Daniel I can do so.

Thus we see further support for KChiefs position that SAs allow us to break game rules.

You begin a rescue attempt or battle challenge by placing a Hero in the Field of Battle... Once the Hero has entered battle and special ability completed, he has begun the battle. At this point, declare your intentions to make a rescue attempt or battle challenge.

So by this logic when another hero is banded into battle you start a new rescue or battle challenge every time a hero enters battle.  Thus a band should start a new battle for each hero.  Obviously this doesn't happen so we see banding breaks a game rule.   

You begin a rescue attempt or battle challenge by placing a Hero in the Field of Battle.

This is the game rule. Which says you may place a Hero in the Field of Battle to start a rescue attempt. A. Singular. One. You cannot add any more than 1 Hero to the field of battle within the game rules or you will be in violation of said game rules. Now, there are ways to get around those game rules. Those are called special abilities. Banding abilities are one of those special abilities. It is allowing you to break the normal game rule of 1 Hero starting a rescue attempt by bringing in more Heroes.

I attack with Woman at the Well. I search your deck for The Rabshakeh, and you already have the Rabshakeh in your territory. You now control duplicates and must discard one. This is a sneaky play that has been legal since TexP.

Hold on.  Let me play catch-up.  So currently a player CAN search another player's deck and put a duplicate of a unique card in play, but CANNOT search their own deck to put a duplicate of a unique card in play?

And if so, it's different because the overall general rule is written in the first person?

Quote from: Professoralstad on March 14, 2012, 03:15:28 PM

I attack with Woman at the Well. I search your deck for The Rabshakeh, and you already have the Rabshakeh in your territory. You now control duplicates and must discard one. This is a sneaky play that has been legal since TexP.

Hold on.  Let me play catch-up.  So currently a player CAN search another player's deck and put a duplicate of a unique card in play, but CANNOT search their own deck to put a duplicate of a unique card in play?

And if so, it's different because the overall general rule is written in the first person?

A player can search anyone's deck and put a unique duplicate in play. That is the current rule, and it is currently being debated, since some elders and others believe it not to be the case.

It is true that there are some game rules that are allowed to be broken by special abilities, and there are other game rules that are NOT allowed to be broken by special abilities.  I also agree with you that it would be a good idea to have a list of both.  However, I also admit that coming up with such a list seems overwhelming.

You wouldn't need a list of both, because I'm betting you can't count a list of the 'hard' rules on one hand.

Read the battle/game rule-
You begin a rescue attempt or battle challenge by placing a Hero in the Field of Battle. The Hero can be played from your hand or your territory. Some Heroes have a special ability printed over the picture on the card. This special ability does not become active until the Hero enters battle. Once the Hero enters battle, the special ability is activated simultaneously. The instructions on the card must be applied at that moment. If the special ability includes the word “may,” you can choose to activate the special ability or skip it for that battle. Once the Hero has entered battle and special ability completed, he has begun the battle. At this point, declare your intentions to make a rescue attempt or battle challenge.

It allows for special abilities (thus governing their allowance). Then, banding is allowed:

Yes, it tells you exactly when special abilities activate by game rule. This is besides the point.

A band ability brings a character into battle to assist another character that is already in the battle. (and is allowed and governed by the game rule)
Can I use a band ability outside of battle (meaning when there is no battle occurring)? No, because banding is governed within the rule of battle....

You're exactly right. Game rule states banding (which is a special ability) happens within the battle phase. But then what do you call it when a card is created that allows you to band outside of battle? Thats right, a special ability. That allows you to break a game rule. That is the sole purpose of a special ability. That is their primary function and what they are designed to do. To allow you to do something that you are not normally allowed to do within the game rules.

The real debate here is exactly what are the hard rules that cannot be broken no matter what, even by special ability.

A player can search anyone's deck and put a unique duplicate in play. That is the current rule, and it is currently being debated, since some elders and others believe it not to be the case.

If this is a rule, why do we have judges ruling it differently in other locales? Does debating a current ruling give judges the right to rule it as they choose now?

There is no rule against bringing multiple unique characters under your control. The rule is that if you come to control multiple unique characters, you must Discard one, with an appendix that specifically prohibits causing this situation via banding or playing from hand by game rule. That's all.

Quote from: theselfevident on March 14, 2012, 06:23:33 PM

I would find it interesting if you could band out side of battle... pre-battle band LOL... it would be an amended rule to banding... it would then be with in the rules of the game...

It is not within the normal game rules. It is a SPECIAL ABILITY that is breaking (bending/going around/going through/frame it as you choose) the game rules.

It is currently not in the rules because there is no special ability that allows for this and therefore no rule allowing this...

Quote

much like territory class enhancements. They don't break the rules, because rules have been written/added to the prep/discard phases... They are still governed by game rules.

They DO break the rules. Are you normally allowed to play regular enhancements during prep/discard phase? If the answer is no, then what is allowing you to do so? A special ability. Is this special ability directly against the normal game rules? Absolutely. Game rules governing when certain special abilities take place really have nothing to do at all with what I am talking about.

They are within the game rules because there was a rule created for territory class enhancements. How could you play them if there was no rule governing them?

Quote

What many of us are debating is that the way it is played right now doesn't follow the rule of you can't bring duplicates into play by your own will

Please point to me in the game rules where you cannot bring duplicates to play outside of battle by special ability.

our contention is that by general rule, you can't break the rules by will...

Quote

The rule is there to unbreak the game, not allow for Sam. draw abuse.

This leads me to believe you are trying to frame rules only to make a certain Hero less powerful. Thats not a very objective approach to the real situation here. We shouldn't be making rulings based on if a certain character is abusing the meta. We should be making rulings based on what they actually are.

My intention is for consistency on the rule that you can not willfully add a duplicate to play...

Quote

Or in other words, when forced to break the rules there is a provision, but you shouldn't be allowed to break the rule on purpose. I think that is the contention and debate at this point.

Then this would be a hard rule the game needs to establish. I have been saying this continuously now.

I agree

It is currently not in the rules because there is no special ability that allows for this and therefore no rule allowing this...

Ok, so you have a game rule that says when you can play a specific type of card. This is not new. This is the foundation games are built on. Otherwise every single card in the game would be unplayable because there are no parameters to govern when they can be played. I still don't see where you're going with this, or how you have explained to me how special abilities do not break normal game rules by virtue.

They are within the game rules because there was a rule created for territory class enhancements. How could you play them if there was no rule governing them?

Right. I gave you that. I am not talking about game rules that govern how cards are played. As said earlier, if there were no game rules, this game would be completely unplayable. We are talking about how special abilities naturally break the game rules. Using Territory-Class enhancements as an example, are you normally allowed to convert an opponents human evil character during prep phase on a moments whim? No. It is the special ability on a card such as Meeting the Messiah that allows you to break that game rule.

our contention is that by general rule, you can't break the rules by will...

Absolutely. I agree with you 100%. This is why special abilities give you that option.

My intention is for consistency on the rule that you can not willfully add a duplicate to play...

Not by game rule. By special ability yes. UNLESS there is a game rule that specifically prohibits a specific special ability from doing it (see: banding). This would make it a 'hard' game rule.

Yes, there is a rule:
No player may control duplicates of a unique character or cause them to fight each other. This includes unique characters in play, in battle, in a side battle, face down, or in a set-aside area.  Character cards with the same card title and the same art or with the same title and the same brigade are considered duplicates for deck building purposes.  A player may have only control one of these at any time.  The only exception to this rule is non-unique characters with different card art.

The point of the provision is when you are forced to have duplicates under your control, you then have to discard one. The provisional rule prevents you from breaking the game rule. At least that's how I interpret the point of the provisional rule. It seems like when you use an optional ability like "may..." it is taking advantage of a rule that was intended to keep the game from being broken, rather than a rule that allows you to do something.

A tidbit of information: rules and laws don't grant liberty, but rather restrict freedoms for the good of a community. For example, a speed limit doesn't allow you to go under the limit but rather restricts you from going above it.

The point is is that the rule is grey... it does not specify the parameters... whichever way it is decided will clarify the issue.

The rules also outline what you are to do if such an occurance occurs. You are not allowed to control duplicates by game rule. This means you cannot use normal game rule functions to put duplicate Heroes in play. This is not the case for special abilities. If such a rule existed that you are unable to put duplicate characters into play no matter what (special abilities included), then it would be completely pointless to include the actions that must be taken when you control duplicate characters (discard duplicates until you only control 1).