Author Topic: Can you have King Saul (good) and King Saul (evil) both in your deck? (Read 24449 times)

LordZardeck · « **on:** February 22, 2012, 05:19:42 PM »

as the title reads, can you have King Saul (good) and King Saul (evil) both in your deck?

Red Wing · « **Reply #1 on:** February 22, 2012, 05:21:08 PM »

Quote from: LordZardeck on February 22, 2012, 05:19:42 PM

as the title reads, can you have King Saul (good) and King Saul (evil) both in your deck?

Yes. Just like you can have David (Red), David (Green), and King David (Purple) in the same deck.

LordZardeck · « **Reply #2 on:** February 22, 2012, 05:22:02 PM »

Can I pull them both out with samuel?

Nameless · « **Reply #3 on:** February 22, 2012, 05:23:52 PM »

Quote from: LordZardeck on February 22, 2012, 05:22:02 PM

Can I pull them both out with samuel?

yes but you cannot have both in your territory at the same time.

LordZardeck · « **Reply #4 on:** February 22, 2012, 05:24:32 PM »

can I play one, then choose which one to discard?

Nameless · « **Reply #5 on:** February 22, 2012, 05:27:22 PM »

Quote from: LordZardeck on February 22, 2012, 05:24:32 PM

can I play one, then choose which one to discard?

No you cannot put one in your territory with the other one already down.

Red Wing · « **Reply #6 on:** February 22, 2012, 05:29:10 PM »

Quote from: Nameless on February 22, 2012, 05:27:22 PM

Quote from: LordZardeck on February 22, 2012, 05:24:32 PM
can I play one, then choose which one to discard?
No you cannot put one in your territory with the other one already down.

Can we have someone confirm this please? I've always played where you can.

LordZardeck · « **Reply #7 on:** February 22, 2012, 05:29:42 PM »

Quote from: Nameless on February 22, 2012, 05:27:22 PM

Quote from: LordZardeck on February 22, 2012, 05:24:32 PM
can I play one, then choose which one to discard?
No you cannot put one in your territory with the other one already down.

What if I use samuel? then it has to be put down.

Nameless · « **Reply #8 on:** February 22, 2012, 05:30:53 PM »

Quote from: LordZardeck on February 22, 2012, 05:29:42 PM

Quote from: Nameless on February 22, 2012, 05:27:22 PM
Quote from: LordZardeck on February 22, 2012, 05:24:32 PM
can I play one, then choose which one to discard?
No you cannot put one in your territory with the other one already down.

What if I use samuel? then it has to be put down.

You cannot use samuel ability with one down. Though I might be wrong.

MitchRobStew · « **Reply #9 on:** February 22, 2012, 06:14:15 PM »

You can use Samuel's ability with one already in territory. You just choose which one to discard after using Samuel's ability. It work the same way with David. You can search for David while already having one in territory. Again you choose which copy to discard.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #10 on:** February 22, 2012, 06:35:34 PM »

Quote from: MitchRobStew on February 22, 2012, 06:14:15 PM

You can use Samuel's ability with one already in territory. You just choose which one to discard after using Samuel's ability. It work the same way with David. You can search for David while already having one in territory. Again you choose which copy to discard.

Agreed. The only time you can't use an ability due to multiple copies of a unique character is banding. It may be all "add to battle," but I'm not sure.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #11 on:** February 22, 2012, 07:37:52 PM »

Quote from: Nameless on February 22, 2012, 05:27:22 PM

Quote from: LordZardeck on February 22, 2012, 05:24:32 PM
can I play one, then choose which one to discard?
No you cannot put one in your territory with the other one already down.

This is currently under discussion, but at my tournaments you cannot use an optional ability to break the "no duplicates in play" rule. Therefore if you have a choice (ie. Samuel), and David or Saul is already in play, then you cannot pull out another copy.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #12 on:** February 22, 2012, 08:40:19 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on February 22, 2012, 07:37:52 PM

Quote from: Nameless on February 22, 2012, 05:27:22 PM
Quote from: LordZardeck on February 22, 2012, 05:24:32 PM
can I play one, then choose which one to discard?
No you cannot put one in your territory with the other one already down.
This is currently under discussion, but at my tournaments you cannot use an optional ability to break the "no duplicates in play" rule. Therefore if you have a choice (ie. Samuel), and David or Saul is already in play, then you cannot pull out another copy.

Is this under discussion on the Elder side of the boards? As of right now I know for a fact that Sam's ability pulls a David even if another David is in play (at least seemed to be the overall conclusion from that thread a couple months ago).

Professoralstad · « **Reply #13 on:** February 22, 2012, 08:46:50 PM »

Yes. Apparently this was another thing that was played one way by some playtesters, and differently by others. Hopefully we will have it resolved sooner than the Thad issue of last year though, since we recognize its importance earlier on.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #14 on:** February 22, 2012, 08:55:02 PM »

I don't think it's a huge issue, since most people agree that Sam himself isn't as big of a deal, however, it should probably be taken care of for obvious reasons. Glad to see the Elders are on top of things though.

adotson85 · « **Reply #15 on:** February 22, 2012, 10:24:27 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on February 22, 2012, 07:37:52 PM

Quote from: Nameless on February 22, 2012, 05:27:22 PM
Quote from: LordZardeck on February 22, 2012, 05:24:32 PM
can I play one, then choose which one to discard?
No you cannot put one in your territory with the other one already down.
This is currently under discussion, but at my tournaments you cannot use an optional ability to break the "no duplicates in play" rule. Therefore if you have a choice (ie. Samuel), and David or Saul is already in play, then you cannot pull out another copy.

Where did you get this ruling? Everything I have found says that it works. It is just frustrating to see everybody saying one thing and then to see a judge/elder say he would rule it differently. The following threads have me convinced that it should work until a clear cut ruling is made:

http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/samuel-29064/

http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/tas-and-duplicate-characters/msg248306/#msg248306

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #16 on:** February 23, 2012, 02:28:15 AM »

One of those threads comes from 2 years ago, and the other one includes me saying:

Quote from: Prof Underwood on December 28, 2011, 02:29:33 PM

I still think that the ruling should be that any card that has a "may" ability that would cause you to break the duplicate game rule should NOT be carried out (at least not the part that would break the gamerule).

Therefore, in the very thread you pointed to, I made the same ruling that I just made today.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #17 on:** February 23, 2012, 02:32:57 AM »

And you've been going against the grain every time. It's one thing to say "I think the rule should be this way," but you seem to be implying you would actually rule it differently at a tournament.

adotson85 · « **Reply #18 on:** February 23, 2012, 02:36:14 AM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on February 23, 2012, 02:28:15 AM

One of those threads comes from 2 years ago, and the other one includes me saying:
Quote from: Prof Underwood on December 28, 2011, 02:29:33 PM
I still think that the ruling should be that any card that has a "may" ability that would cause you to break the duplicate game rule should NOT be carried out (at least not the part that would break the gamerule).
Therefore, in the very thread you pointed to, I made the same ruling that I just made today.

Yes, I know one is outdated and that you were against it in the other one. I'm not directing this at you, but more at trying to stress the importance of getting a ruling on this so that everyone is on the same page. It's just that it has always been played one way and now the ruling comes into question, even though these situations have been around for awhile. I know over the last couple years Gabe has used The Woman at the Well in t2 to force me to have duplicate evil characters and had to discard one of them.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #19 on:** February 23, 2012, 02:38:12 AM »

Currently, precedent dictates that Sam can search for duplicates. The debate must be over whether to change it.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #20 on:** February 23, 2012, 02:52:31 AM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on February 23, 2012, 02:32:57 AM

And you've been going against the grain every time.

Actually, considering that I was the last elder to post on the most recent thread, and no other elders disagreed with my ruling, I am the grain

However, since then the elders have discovered that there are different precedents in different parts of the country. That is why we are now discussing this to determine how to rule this consistently everywhere. We'll return with an official decision later. But for now, I do plan on ruling this at tournaments the way that I have stated.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #21 on:** February 23, 2012, 03:30:51 AM »

The biggest "you're wrong" I can think of is in the case of deck discard. According you you, a player can't use an optional ability that would put duplicates in play, but that's not always possible to determine before the fact. If someone uses the Assyrian card that can be insteaded by Discarding top cards from your deck, and you have Chamber in play, you could choose to Discard the top cards of your deck, but then if it contained any unique Angel you already had in play, it'd be illegal.

This falls under a more general ruling I've been pushing for for ages; don't have rules with de facto grey areas. For example, "add to battle" abilities; some people want any ability that adds a character to battle to be a banding ability. However, Evil Spawn can add either a character or an Enhancement to battle, and there's no way of knowing which (if any) it will be until after the fact. So if banding abilities are prevented, is Evil Spawn prevented?

I favor top-down rules with no exceptions. The way almost everyone plays duplicates, and has been for years, and the way the REG implies duplicates should be played, is such. Saying that an optional ability cannot create duplicate characters even in territory, while a non-optional can is both overly-complicated and in some instances broken (not in the sense of being to powerful, but doesn't work).

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #22 on:** February 23, 2012, 08:04:30 AM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on February 23, 2012, 03:30:51 AM

The biggest "you're wrong" I can think of is in the case of deck discard. According you you, a player can't use an optional ability that would put duplicates in play, but that's not always possible to determine before the fact.

I see a difference between purposefully breaking the "no duplicate characters" rule by going through your deck and choosing to put a duplicate character in play (which I would rule as illegal) and discarding the top card and being surprised to find that it is a duplicate character (which I would rule as legal).

One is trying to break the rules, and the other is doing it accidentally. In cases of accidentally breaking the rules, we have a rule to cover what to do (discard 1 of the duplicates), but there is no reason to allow people to break rules on purpose.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #23 on:** February 23, 2012, 11:52:31 AM »

Hold the presses! Intent factors into legality now? So if I accidentally leave a LS in my opponent's deck, then I don't have to forfeit?

browarod · « **Reply #24 on:** February 23, 2012, 12:18:43 PM »

You can always search for duplicate characters with Samuel, the question is whether or not you can put the duplicate in play or whether it must go to hand. Just wanted to point out the error of many of the posts so far.

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Author Topic: Can you have King Saul (good) and King Saul (evil) both in your deck? (Read 24449 times)

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy

browarod