Author Topic: Burial Shroud (Read 12647 times)

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #75 on:** February 16, 2012, 11:59:00 AM »

There's quite a bit not resolved, actually. If the mechanism for restricting rescues is merely stopping LS's from being redeemed during battle resolution, the owner of Shroud should be able to attack regardless of whether the Hero has access to any Lost Souls.

browarod · « **Reply #76 on:** February 16, 2012, 12:03:02 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on February 16, 2012, 11:59:00 AM

the owner of Shroud should be able to attack regardless of whether the Hero has access to any Lost Souls.

Last I heard, you could do that in T1. The question is with that and Rescuer's Choice in T2, which is what I said, lol.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #77 on:** February 16, 2012, 12:06:45 PM »

Last I heard, you could not do that in T1.

browarod · « **Reply #78 on:** February 16, 2012, 12:17:16 PM »

At any rate, Burial Shroud has nothing to do with repelling anyone, which is what Red Warrior keeps talking about, so that's why I'm mentioning that again.

It seems we'll need an Elder to solve the "mechanism" question.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #79 on:** February 16, 2012, 12:37:08 PM »

Claiming that things are not resolved doesn't make them resolved. As of right now, if you have access to a Lost Soul in T1 with your own Burial Shroud up, you cannot enter battle. You must start the battle as a battle challenge, no matter what. With that in mind, the question that must be answered is does Burial Shroud restrict the player from making a rescue attempt or being in a rescue attempt? If the former, then the way you've described would indeed be the way it works. If it's the latter, then the heroes should get get kicked out.

browarod · « **Reply #80 on:** February 16, 2012, 12:59:25 PM »

Restrict stops a player from doing something. In that regard, it's more like a prevent than an interrupt. I can play a set aside enhancement and then activate CwD and it won't undo the card I already played. Similarly, Shroud's restrict shouldn't undo a battle that's already in progress (i.e.: by kicking anyone out of battle). I have not seen anyone play it as kicking anyone out, it doesn't make logical sense for it to do that, so that's where I'm coming from. Restrict is not, and imho should not be, a battle winner.

Praeceps · « **Reply #81 on:** February 16, 2012, 01:09:15 PM »

Quote from: browarod on February 16, 2012, 12:59:25 PM

Restrict stops a player from doing something. In that regard, it's more like a prevent than an interrupt. I can play a set aside enhancement and then activate CwD and it won't undo the card I already played. Similarly, Shroud's restrict shouldn't undo a battle that's already in progress (i.e.: by kicking anyone out of battle). I have not seen anyone play it as kicking anyone out, it doesn't make logical sense for it to do that, so that's where I'm coming from. Restrict is not, and imho should not be, a battle winner.

The thing is you're misreading the restrict. You aren't being restricted from winning a LS, you're being restricted from making a rescue attempt. If Burial Shroud is active and non-negated you can not make a rescue attempt. If your Battle Challenge turns into a Rescue attempt then you can not continue as you can not make a rescue attempt. If you can do A but not B, then the minute A turns into B, you're done as you can no longer continue.

You can't read a card that says you can't make a rescue attempt and say that it means you can't win a Lost Soul and still say you want simplicity and clarity. It's already simple and clear, which is something we all say that we want, The holder can not make a Rescue Attempt. No exceptions. No loopholes.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #82 on:** February 16, 2012, 01:16:14 PM »

Quote from: browarod on February 16, 2012, 12:59:25 PM

Restrict stops a player from doing something. In that regard, it's more like a prevent than an interrupt. I can play a set aside enhancement and then activate CwD and it won't undo the card I already played. Similarly, Shroud's restrict shouldn't undo a battle that's already in progress (i.e.: by kicking anyone out of battle). I have not seen anyone play it as kicking anyone out, it doesn't make logical sense for it to do that, so that's where I'm coming from. Restrict is not, and imho should not be, a battle winner.

It makes perfect sense to do that depending on what Burial Shroud is restricting. I know what a restrict does, but if BS is restricting the player from being in a rescue attempt, how do you propose that that be solved? There is nothing in Burial Shroud's wording that keeps a player from rescuing a lost soul, so if it works the way you're proposing, if a battle challenge turns into a rescue attempt, there's nothing keeping me from a successful rescue attempt.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #83 on:** February 16, 2012, 01:25:13 PM »

This thread's getting pretty circular, but it seems to me that the key word is "making." Given that the REG uses "initiate" to indicate that a Rescue Attempt is starting I would say that a player is making a rescue attempt at all points where they have access to a lost soul. Thus, Burial Shroud could be interpreted as restricting the holder from performing any action that changes a BC to a RA, including:
-Playing HT
-Soul Gen cards like Joseph Before Pharaohs
-Using the Hopper
This last one would be interesting as Burial Shroud is restricting a player from drawing, but only a particular card.

Praeceps · « **Reply #84 on:** February 16, 2012, 01:28:40 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on February 16, 2012, 01:25:13 PM

This thread's getting pretty circular, but it seems to me that the key word is "making." Given that the REG uses "initiate" to indicate that a Rescue Attempt is starting I would say that a player is making a rescue attempt at all points where they have access to a lost soul. Thus, Burial Shroud could be interpreted as restricting the holder from performing any action that changes a BC to a RA, including:
-Playing HT
-Soul Gen cards like Joseph Before Pharaohs
-Using the Hopper
This last one would be interesting as Burial Shroud is restricting a player from drawing, but only a particular card.

I can see your point here, but wouldn't it simplify matters to just let the cards play as they will but once the BC becomes a RA it ends, rather than make the artifact stop certain cards being played in certain ways at certain times?

Red Warrior · « **Reply #85 on:** February 16, 2012, 01:29:51 PM »

Scott, I was getting ready to post a couple quotes from people who were still disagreeing that Shroud works the way you and I think and then Praeceps and Chronic made their post. I'll save the page space...

Scott,
I'm not trying to mix repel and restrict, "repel" is a nickname for the aforementioned interpretation of Burial Shroud that leads to an "end battle - return characters" situation. I agree with your stance.

Praeceps and Chronic,
You are correct in saying that, as written, Burial Shroud does not restrict a "soul from being rescued". I admittedly am effectively proposing to a "play as" to avoid the above confusion of a "battle winner" situation.

Kittens
That makes the best use of the wording as is... but creates some funny situations. "I interrupt the battle and draw one, two, thr.... o wait, that's the hopper... do I draw 2? 0?" or "I drew the revealer, your top two please... oh, one is a soul? put the soul on top and the other on the bottom... er... both on the top?"

SomeKittens · « **Reply #86 on:** February 16, 2012, 01:31:44 PM »

Quote from: Praeceps on February 16, 2012, 01:28:40 PM

Quote from: SomeKittens on February 16, 2012, 01:25:13 PM
This thread's getting pretty circular, but it seems to me that the key word is "making." Given that the REG uses "initiate" to indicate that a Rescue Attempt is starting I would say that a player is making a rescue attempt at all points where they have access to a lost soul. Thus, Burial Shroud could be interpreted as restricting the holder from performing any action that changes a BC to a RA, including:
-Playing HT
-Soul Gen cards like Joseph Before Pharaohs
-Using the Hopper
This last one would be interesting as Burial Shroud is restricting a player from drawing, but only a particular card.

I can see your point here, but wouldn't it simplify matters to just let the cards play as they will but once the BC becomes a RA it ends, rather than make the artifact stop certain cards being played in certain ways at certain times?

Who said anything about simplicity? We're here to make sure the cards play exactly as they should, unless it becomes OP'd.

Come to think of it, Burial Shroud wouldn't restrict me from drawing the Hopper/Revealer, just playing them, so I should keep them in my hand.

browarod · « **Reply #87 on:** February 16, 2012, 03:06:20 PM »

I think the simplest interpretation for the restrict on BS would be something to the effect of: "holder cannot begin a rescue attempt, and holder's battle challenge cannot become a rescue attempt regardless of other abilities." That way there isn't confusion about "what if I draw Hopper" as well as the battle not having to stop or kick anyone out. As far as I had ruled it/seen it ruled, this is already how it was being treated, so I don't think much of anything would actually change if this was used, just that it would clarify when ruling questions like this thread came up.

Is there anything anyone can find that would be a problem with this interpretation?

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #88 on:** February 16, 2012, 03:08:21 PM »

I think a better definition would be, "holder cannot begin a rescue attempt, and is restricted from rescuing a Lost Soul".

lp670sv · « **Reply #89 on:** February 16, 2012, 03:09:40 PM »

Is this still going? Can we just get an elder ruling already? Any time a ruling question moves to a second page it should go to elder ruling as it's obviously not something the community can come to a consensus on.

Red Warrior · « **Reply #90 on:** February 16, 2012, 03:11:22 PM »

Quote

Come to think of it, Burial Shroud wouldn't restrict me from drawing the Hopper/Revealer, just playing them, so I should keep them in my hand.

You can keep Hopper but you have to play Revealer. If revealer doesn't pop a soul you're fine. If it does, it stays on deck...

Nope, we definitely don't need to resolve the issues at hand with this ruling

Quote

Is there anything anyone can find that would be a problem with this interpretation?

Quote

Is this still going? Can we just get an elder ruling already?

That's why I've continuously bumped this thread. No definitive answers.

browarod · « **Reply #91 on:** February 16, 2012, 03:12:46 PM »

Hopefully we can get Elder input so that this gets a definitive answer one way or another.

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on February 16, 2012, 03:08:21 PM

I think a better definition would be, "holder cannot begin a rescue attempt, and is restricted from rescuing a Lost Soul".

The problem I see with that is it would give the holder the ability to make a battle challenge even if they would have had access to a soul. I think it's better to still require that they not have access before they can use one of their hero's abilities.

Red Warrior · « **Reply #92 on:** February 16, 2012, 03:28:47 PM »

We were wrestling with wording clear back at page 4, here was my "version 1.3" from that page:

Opponent is restricted from initiating a battle. Holder is restricted from initiating a rescue attempt. If holder's hero gains access to a lost soul, holder is restricted from rescuing a lost soul during battle resolution. Battle is considered a battle challenge regardless of access. Limit Twice.

The "battle is considered a battle challenge" was to get away from cards like Primary Objective and ANB Errata that function only when you are making a "rescue attempt" by name.

Mr.Hiatus · « **Reply #93 on:** February 16, 2012, 03:53:57 PM »

Quote

Scenario 1: Lost souls in LoB I don't initially have access to. I choose a lost soul I don't have access to.

Scenario 2: No lost souls in LoB to choose. I choose none of them which is basically choosing a lost soul I don't have access to.

Scenario 3: Lost souls in LoB, all of which I have access to. I choose none of them which is basically choosing a lost soul I don't have access to.

Scenarios 1 & 2 follow the rules and are how Type 2 have been played for eons. Scenario 3 is a valid scenario but the rules are little waffling on it. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be valid. It's Rescuer's Choice after all. I should have the choice of not making a choice.

Does Stamp need Mr. Hiatus to take him to T2 school?
These scenarios are ridiculous.
Use specific examples.
Me rewording your scenario 1: The only lost souls my opponent has are the */4, N.T. only, FRP in first round, and Female only. I do not RA with Benjamin, but I battle challenge with Benjamin. I have no lost soul access, therefore do NOT make a RA, or "choose" a lost soul I do not have access to. You do not choose a lost soul when declaring a BC when you have no access. Now if you DID have one generic lost soul out, you could choose the N.T. only, but only when access is available do you choose. If you have to say something is basically doing something else, then a) it isn't and b) you can not use it in another example.
Your scenario 2 is beyond ridiculous. I can not even reword this, only explain to you the craziness of your example. You do not choose none when there is none. You STATE a BC, meaning you do not have access, or you chose one you did not have access to. Choosing none is NOT "basically" choosing a lost soul which does not exist. It is "basically" stating a BC.
Scenario 3: Should be throw out due to scenario 2 and the usage of basically to describe rulings. If there are lost souls out in T2, and you attack with a hero who has access to EVERY lost soul, then you can not "basically" choose no lost soul and make it a battle challenge. And once again, choosing no lost soul, because that would not be choosing, choosing is targeting, you have to target your lost soul, is not the same thing as going for a lost soul you have no access to.
So to sum it up: My rewording of Scenario 1 is fine. If you have no access to the lost souls out, you declare a BC. You do NOT choose no lost soul.
My rewording of Scenario 2: State a BC when you have no access, if you do have access to a lost soul, but do not wish to go for it and you have other targets to choose from, you choose the lost soul which you do not have access to making it a BC. In type 1 this would not work, only in T2.
My rewording of Scenario 3: If you have access to a lost soul, there is no such thing as a BC, only a RA.
To completely sum it up: If you attack and your opponent has all generic lost souls, you can not declare a BC. If Burial Shroud is active against you during this, then you can not step into battle.
Do I need to clarify on the type 1 questions too?

Lawman · « **Reply #94 on:** February 16, 2012, 04:14:43 PM »

Is it not true that in T1, when a player initiates a battle challenge that if, during the course of battle, a rescue-able soul enters the opponent's LoB, the battle now continues as a rescue attempt? Meaning, there is no choice, there is no "may;" the battle is now a RA. (See Definition of Rescue Attempt below)

THAT is the problem with Burial Shroud as it stands. There is no provision in the ability or the rules of the game where you can "elect" to continue the battle as a battle challenge. I know, I know, that is how it has been ruled and it is the most popular way. The problem is there is no support for it at this point.

The problem lies in this definition right here:

Quote

Rescue Attempt

A rescue attempt is the effort to recover a Lost Soul from the Land of Bondage by battle. A rescue attempt battle is initiated when a Hero is placed in the Field of Battle. The battle is considered a rescue attempt if a Hero has access to a Lost Soul at any point in the battle. A player is allowed one rescue attempt per turn unless a card states otherwise.

This one sentence makes the current way BS has been ruled in T1 technically incorrect. (This has all been stated before)

Possible SOLUTIONS:

Quote

The battle may be considered a rescue attempt if a Hero has access to a Lost Soul at any point in the battle.

--OR--

Quote

The battle is considered a rescue attempt if a Hero has access to a Lost Soul at any point in the battle; if Rescuer is restricted from making a Rescue Attempt, battle must continue as a battle challenge and a lost soul cannot be rescued.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #95 on:** February 16, 2012, 04:18:42 PM »

You have always been able to choose a lost soul you don't have access to even if there are no other eligible lost souls. You say it's a battle challenge so you cannot choose but choosing the star four over a generic lost soul is still a battle challenge so how can you choose in that situation but not the other

In type 2 Rescue Choice has nothing to do with Rescue attempts really, it has every thing to do with what lost soul I am want to try and rescue. The quote in the REG is a bad quote.

STAMP · « **Reply #96 on:** February 16, 2012, 04:42:44 PM »

Quote from: Mr.Hiatus on February 16, 2012, 03:53:57 PM

Does Stamp need Mr. Hiatus to take him to T2 school?

Naw, I'm being homeschooled with the Hobbit...

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on February 16, 2012, 04:18:42 PM

You have always been able to choose a lost soul you don't have access to even if there are no other eligible lost souls. You say it's a battle challenge so you cannot choose but choosing the star four over a generic lost soul is still a battle challenge so how can you choose in that situation but not the other? In type 2 Rescue Choice has nothing to do with Rescue attempts really, it has every thing to do with what lost soul I am want to try and rescue. The quote in the REG is a bad quote.

browarod · « **Reply #97 on:** February 16, 2012, 04:53:40 PM »

I think Stamp and Hobbit were replying to Mr.Hiatus, not you Lawman.

Lawman · « **Reply #98 on:** February 16, 2012, 05:03:21 PM »

Couldn't tell, my bad. Deleting as we speak haha! Guess it helps to quote people... (My last one was an "in general" to those who recently tuned in to this matter and were repeating the cycle)

Mr.Hiatus · « **Reply #99 on:** February 16, 2012, 05:49:25 PM »

Quote

Is it not true that in T1, when a player initiates a battle challenge that if, during the course of battle, a rescue-able soul enters the opponent's LoB, the battle now continues as a rescue attempt? Meaning, there is no choice, there is no "may;" the battle is now a RA. (See Definition of Rescue Attempt below)

Correct.
I said what Hobbit said...
Like I said, you attack with Benjamin having no lost soul access, you still choose, just it's a battle challenge.

News:

Author Topic: Burial Shroud (Read 12647 times)

browarod

browarod

Chronic Apathy

browarod

Chronic Apathy

browarod

Chronic Apathy

browarod

TheHobbit13

browarod