Author Topic: Burial Shroud  (Read 12650 times)

Chronic Apathy

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Re: Burial Shroud
« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2012, 12:21:14 AM »
+1
Isn't "Restrict" old wording for protect? Can't we reasonably conclude that Burial Shroud protects lost souls from rescue by heroes?

Restrict is it's own ability now, with it's own ramifications, implications, friends, enemies, and Myspace.

Offline lp670sv

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Re: Burial Shroud
« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2012, 12:24:23 AM »
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Isn't "Restrict" old wording for protect? Can't we reasonably conclude that Burial Shroud protects lost souls from rescue by heroes?

Restrict is it's own ability now, with it's own ramifications, implications, friends, enemies, and Myspace.

This explains everything....

Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Burial Shroud
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2012, 12:53:23 AM »
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That still leaves the question unanswered. Is a player who is restricted from making a RA unable to attack at all? Does every attack he initiates become a BC regardless of Soul Availability, and if so is it because during the rescue step of battle resolution, no soul is rescued or because no Hero he uses has access to any Soul? Is he able to attack only with a Hero that would cause a normal battle-challenge situation, and if so, what happens if conditions change into what would normally become a Rescue Attempt?
I am not talking about T2 unless I am explicitly talking about T2. Also Mayhem is fine now somehow!

Offline Red Warrior

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Re: Burial Shroud
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2012, 01:16:44 AM »
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I would appreciate some critical think-tanking on the potential problems if we used this understanding of Shroud:

Opponent is restricted from initiating a battle. Holder is restricted from initiating a rescue attempt. If holder gains access to a lost soul, holder's heroes are restricted from rescuing a lost soul during battle resolution.

As Pol mentioned, under this understanding even Site Access heroes can initiate a battle challenge, but the player would be restricted from rescuing a soul. I inserted the "during battle resolution" to try to avoid potential problems with Primary Objective.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 01:36:29 AM by Red Warrior »
-Joey

Red was always playable :)

Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Burial Shroud
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2012, 01:41:38 AM »
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The problem with that is that Heroes can't be restricted, only players.
I am not talking about T2 unless I am explicitly talking about T2. Also Mayhem is fine now somehow!

Offline Red Warrior

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Re: Burial Shroud
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2012, 02:13:34 AM »
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I added "heroes" at the last minute (thus the "edited by" note) in case this would create issues with a player being restricted from playing SoG/NJ. I shoulda' left it alone, lol.

Also fixed: the holder does not ever gain access to the soul :( Stone Cut Without Hands anybody?  ;)

Version 1.2:
Opponent is restricted from initiating a battle. Holder is restricted from initiating a rescue attempt. If holder's hero gains access to a lost soul, holder is restricted from rescuing a lost soul during battle resolution.
-Joey

Red was always playable :)

Offline Lawman

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Re: Burial Shroud
« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2012, 02:21:43 AM »
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Rescue Attempt

A rescue attempt is the effort to recover a Lost Soul from the Land of Bondage by battle. A rescue attempt battle is initiated when a Hero is placed in the Field of Battle. The battle is considered a rescue attempt if a Hero has access to a Lost Soul at any point in the battle. A player is allowed one rescue attempt per turn unless a card states otherwise.

See also Battle Phase.

--
Restrict:

Gen. Descr.
A restrict ability keeps a player from performing an action that they would normally be allowed to perform.

How to Play

A restrict ability reduces the number of game action choices available to a player.

All restrict abilities are ongoing. A restrict ability targets the player that becomes restricted.

--

As per the reg, if the hero has access, it is a rescue attempt.  BS restricts the holder from making RA's (ongoing) so if at any point the hero gains access to the LS (Thus making it a RA), the restrict kicks in.

Combine the 2 definitions and it would appear the battle cannot continue. Period.  It ends because the restrict is ongoing and the player is restricted from making RA's.

I agree there is a bit of a hole there, but in reality, YMT's interpretation would be the most logical.  A RA cannot be made becuase the battle is restricted to BC's only.  IMO, there is no hole just a question of what happens next: Does the battle end as is, or does it continue to resolution as a BC (As CT and FL have ruled)?
« Last Edit: February 08, 2012, 02:24:37 AM by Lawman »
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Offline Red Warrior

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Re: Burial Shroud
« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2012, 02:31:03 AM »
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Lawman,
All the things you've said are what we've been processing... yet we arrive at the same issue:

We need to interpret Burial Shroud in such a way that we understand the implications and applications of a battle-challenge-gone-rescue-attempt.

Quote
Version 1.2:
Opponent is restricted from initiating a battle. Holder is restricted from initiating a rescue attempt. If holder's hero gains access to a lost soul, holder is restricted from rescuing a lost soul during battle resolution.

If we use this approach, rather than trying to build in some kind of "game-rule-repel" against heroes, we simply acknowledge that the player is restricted from rescuing a soul at resolution. Forcing a character out of battle by game rule isn't unprecedented (conversion), just not preferred.
-Joey

Red was always playable :)

Offline Lawman

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Re: Burial Shroud
« Reply #33 on: February 08, 2012, 02:50:28 AM »
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Lawman,
All the things you've said are what we've been processing... yet we arrive at the same issue:

We need to interpret Burial Shroud in such a way that we understand the implications and applications of a battle-challenge-gone-rescue-attempt.

Quote
Version 1.2:
Opponent is restricted from initiating a battle. Holder is restricted from initiating a rescue attempt. If holder's hero gains access to a lost soul, holder is restricted from rescuing a lost soul during battle resolution.

If we use this approach, rather than trying to build in some kind of "game-rule-repel" against heroes, we simply acknowledge that the player is restricted from rescuing a soul at resolution. Forcing a character out of battle by game rule isn't unprecedented (conversion), just not preferred.

I understand.  From reading the definitions, I would say the battle ends as is with no rescue; however, I would deem this as unfair for the opponent who could potentially lose the battle due to the restrict becoming valid.  Also, I took the liberty of explicitly stating in one post exactly how the situation stands so my post was clarifying feedback to ensure everyone is on the same page (while inserting my own opinion).

There isn't much to process as it's quite clear that either A. BS needs an errata to restrict Battle Challenges, or B. Keep it as is and clarify how to play the restrict in this case.  A. Was formerly the standard answer while B. Seems to be the new, more up to date answer.
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Chronic Apathy

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Re: Burial Shroud
« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2012, 10:32:36 AM »
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I actually agree with Lawman on this one. There's absolutely no precedence to allow a battle to continue if a Battle Challenge turns into a Rescue Attempt while Burial Shroud is active. The holder is restricted from being in a rescue attempt, period, and as such, I think that all heroes would be kicked out of battle as soon as the last ability that needs to complete does (for instance, if somebody drew Hopper off of Reach of Desperation, they'd finish drawing and play an enhancement, then, if the enhancement didn't negate Shroud, they'd get kicked out). Red Warrior, your proposed wording would actually allow the user to play Primary Objective to still potentially win a soul.

Offline STAMP

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Re: Burial Shroud
« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2012, 10:43:07 AM »
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So let's throw out some more hypotheticals.  In Type 2, I have access to lost souls and activate Burial Shroud.  I declare that I am not choosing a lost soul and issue a battle challenge.

Yay or nay?

Quote from: Redemption Rulebook
Rescuer’s Choice
Before a player begins a rescue attempt, he must announce which Lost Soul he is trying to rescue. That is the only Lost Soul he is eligible to rescue. If that partic­ular Lost Soul is taken out of play prior to the end of the battle (by Burial, Son of God, or New Jerusalem), then the rescuer will not rescue a Lost Soul even if his forces win the battle.

NOTE: Type II Tournament Rules are always played under the Rescuer’s Choice rule.
Final ANB errata: Return player to game.

Chronic Apathy

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Re: Burial Shroud
« Reply #36 on: February 08, 2012, 10:45:16 AM »
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Quote
Before a player begins a rescue attempt, he must announce which Lost Soul he is trying to rescue.
Quote
The battle is considered a rescue attempt if a Hero has access to a Lost Soul at any point in the battle.

These two quotes lead me to believe that you don't have the ability to not select a soul if you have access to one in T2.

Offline STAMP

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Re: Burial Shroud
« Reply #37 on: February 08, 2012, 10:51:21 AM »
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Quote
Before a player begins a rescue attempt, he must announce which Lost Soul he is trying to rescue.
Quote
The battle is considered a rescue attempt if a Hero has access to a Lost Soul at any point in the battle.

These two quotes lead me to believe that you don't have the ability to not select a soul if you have access to one in T2.

But I'm not beginning a rescue attempt.  I'm declaring a battle challenge.  Remember, it's already been ruled that I can choose a lost soul that I don't initially have access to, which is essentially declaring a rescue attempt when it starts as a battle challenge.
Final ANB errata: Return player to game.

Offline Red Warrior

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Re: Burial Shroud
« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2012, 12:26:03 PM »
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Quote
Red Warrior, your proposed wording would actually allow the user to play Primary Objective to still potentially win a soul.

Chronic
Would this wording fix it?:

Version 1.3:
Opponent is restricted from initiating a battle. Holder is restricted from initiating a rescue attempt. If holder's hero gains access to a lost soul, holder is restricted from rescuing a lost soul during battle resolution. Battle is considered a battle challenge regardless of access.
-Joey

Red was always playable :)

Chronic Apathy

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Re: Burial Shroud
« Reply #39 on: February 08, 2012, 02:05:08 PM »
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Quote
Before a player begins a rescue attempt, he must announce which Lost Soul he is trying to rescue.
Quote
The battle is considered a rescue attempt if a Hero has access to a Lost Soul at any point in the battle.

These two quotes lead me to believe that you don't have the ability to not select a soul if you have access to one in T2.

But I'm not beginning a rescue attempt.  I'm declaring a battle challenge.  Remember, it's already been ruled that I can choose a lost soul that I don't initially have access to, which is essentially declaring a rescue attempt when it starts as a battle challenge.

You still cannot choose to not select a soul if one is available. Choosing one you don't have access too and not choosing are different.

Offline STAMP

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Re: Burial Shroud
« Reply #40 on: February 08, 2012, 02:26:05 PM »
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Quote
Before a player begins a rescue attempt, he must announce which Lost Soul he is trying to rescue.
Quote
The battle is considered a rescue attempt if a Hero has access to a Lost Soul at any point in the battle.

These two quotes lead me to believe that you don't have the ability to not select a soul if you have access to one in T2.

But I'm not beginning a rescue attempt.  I'm declaring a battle challenge.  Remember, it's already been ruled that I can choose a lost soul that I don't initially have access to, which is essentially declaring a rescue attempt when it starts as a battle challenge.

You still cannot choose to not select a soul if one is available. Choosing one you don't have access too and not choosing are different.

If there are none available, I'm not choosing a lost soul.  And I can declare a battle challenge.  Just because one is there doesn't infer that I choose one.  Based on the definition in the rulebook, I only choose if I wish to make a rescue attempt.  For that matter, if I choose to NOT do a rescue attempt, I simply choose nothing.  The reverse is also true: if I fail to choose a lost soul I cannot start a rescue attempt and therefore it would be a battle challenge.
Final ANB errata: Return player to game.

Chronic Apathy

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Re: Burial Shroud
« Reply #41 on: February 08, 2012, 02:49:50 PM »
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Quote
The battle is considered a rescue attempt if a Hero has access to a Lost Soul at any point in the battle.

This quote still has merit, however. Special abilities can change game rules (for instance, Primary Objective changing this rule), however my argument is that in Type II, if a Lost Soul is available at the beginning of a battle, that battle must be a rescue attempt, as per that quote from the REG.

Offline STAMP

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Re: Burial Shroud
« Reply #42 on: February 08, 2012, 03:23:32 PM »
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Quote
The battle is considered a rescue attempt if a Hero has access to a Lost Soul at any point in the battle.

This quote still has merit, however. Special abilities can change game rules (for instance, Primary Objective changing this rule), however my argument is that in Type II, if a Lost Soul is available at the beginning of a battle, that battle must be a rescue attempt, as per that quote from the REG.

Not for Type 2.  I may have access to a generic lost soul not in a site but choose a lost soul in a site in which I don't initially have access.  It's a battle challenge until I get access.
Final ANB errata: Return player to game.

Offline LordZardeck

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Re: Burial Shroud
« Reply #43 on: February 08, 2012, 03:38:34 PM »
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I'm just going to throw this question out there: How long does it's effect last? Since it can only be used twice, wouldn't I wait to use when my opponent wants to attack me, during HIS turn? So the question begs, how long is this effect in place? Till the beginning of his next turn or what? Cause otherwise, the "Holder may not make a rescue attempt" part is worthless.

Offline SomeKittens

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Re: Burial Shroud
« Reply #44 on: February 08, 2012, 03:40:40 PM »
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The effect starts upon activation (Your prep phase) and lasts for an entire round.
Mind not the ignorant fool on the other side of the screen!-BubbleBoy
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Offline LordZardeck

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Re: Burial Shroud
« Reply #45 on: February 08, 2012, 03:44:22 PM »
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The effect starts upon activation (Your prep phase) and lasts for an entire round.

So wait, at the beginning of my next turn, do I have to flip it face down if I don't want it to take effect? Also, what about cards like Unholy writ? Wouldn't the same logic state that I would have to use it's effect immediately upon activation?

Offline SomeKittens

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Re: Burial Shroud
« Reply #46 on: February 08, 2012, 04:00:20 PM »
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The effect starts upon activation (Your prep phase) and lasts for an entire round.

So wait, at the beginning of my next turn, do I have to flip it face down if I don't want it to take effect? Yes Also, what about cards like Unholy writ? Wouldn't the same logic state that I would have to use it's effect immediately upon activation? No, as UW's ability is a "may" ability.  (I.E. it is optional, so you chose when to use it.  See Holy Grail/Charms.)
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Offline LordZardeck

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Re: Burial Shroud
« Reply #47 on: February 08, 2012, 04:03:21 PM »
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BS is a "may" ability too

Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: Burial Shroud
« Reply #48 on: February 08, 2012, 04:09:18 PM »
+1
BS is a "may" ability too

No, it's a "May not" ability.
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Offline LordZardeck

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Re: Burial Shroud
« Reply #49 on: February 08, 2012, 04:12:19 PM »
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"Holder may not make a rescue attempt or be attacked. May be used twice"

 


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