Author Topic: Book of Jashar (Read 3916 times)

spicynumber1 · « **on:** November 10, 2011, 08:57:13 PM »

Can you use Book of Jashar as a negate if you are being removed from battle and the last good enhancement played was a negate?

Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Blue • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: This enhancement duplicates (becomes an exact copy of) the previous good enhancement played by holder this turn. • Play As: Copy the previous good enhancement played by holder this turn. When this card leaves battle, it returns to face value. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Joshua 10:13 • Availability: Kings booster packs (Common)

Red Wing · « **Reply #1 on:** November 10, 2011, 09:08:07 PM »

I would say no because of this from the REG:

Quote

A Hero is losing by removal if the Hero is being captured, discarded, returned to territory, or otherwise removed from battle by an opposing special ability. You have initiative, but you may only play an enhancement that has an “interrupt” or “negate” special ability.

browarod · « **Reply #2 on:** November 10, 2011, 09:27:20 PM »

I would actually think you could. It sort of acts like an instead ("this card's ability is the ability of the previous enhancement played instead") so I think you could use it if it copies an interrupt/negate.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #3 on:** November 11, 2011, 12:29:52 AM »

I would say no, but I hope I'm wrong.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #4 on:** November 11, 2011, 08:29:49 AM »

I would rule yes.

spicynumber1 · « **Reply #5 on:** November 11, 2011, 10:27:50 AM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on November 11, 2011, 08:29:49 AM

I would rule yes.

Does that make it official?

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #6 on:** November 11, 2011, 11:01:54 AM »

This basically comes down to one question:

When a player has "special initiative", they can ONLY play an enhancement that interrupts or negates the special ability that caused the "special initiative". Do we check to make sure that an enhancement fits that description BEFORE or AFTER the special ability has activated?

If the answer is BEFORE, then you could not play Book of Jashar, because it is not an innately an interrupt or negate.

If the answer is AFTER, then you could play Book of Jashar, but that would also mean that we would have to start letting people play enhancements like Pride of Simon in cases where their special ability brings back an interrupt or negate from the discard pile...or Answer to Prayer which could bring an interrupt or negate from the draw pile...or even a "horses" enhancement which might pull an interrupt or negate from the top 2 cards...etc.

I think it makes the game a lot simpler if we rule that we have to decide BEFORE and enhancement is played whether it is an interrupt or negate, and thus Book of Jashar would NOT qualify.

STAMP · « **Reply #7 on:** November 11, 2011, 11:13:30 AM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on November 11, 2011, 08:29:49 AM

I would rule yes.

Quote from: Prof Underwood on November 11, 2011, 11:01:54 AM

This basically comes down to one question:

When a player has "special initiative", they can ONLY play an enhancement that interrupts or negates the special ability that caused the "special initiative". Do we check to make sure that an enhancement fits that description BEFORE or AFTER the special ability has activated?

If the answer is BEFORE, then you could not play Book of Jashar, because it is not an innately an interrupt or negate.

If the answer is AFTER, then you could play Book of Jashar, but that would also mean that we would have to start letting people play enhancements like Pride of Simon in cases where their special ability brings back an interrupt or negate from the discard pile...or Answer to Prayer which could bring an interrupt or negate from the draw pile...or even a "horses" enhancement which might pull an interrupt or negate from the top 2 cards...etc.

I think it makes the game a lot simpler if we rule that we have to decide BEFORE and enhancement is played whether it is an interrupt or negate, and thus Book of Jashar would NOT qualify.

Good points. I'm now ambivalent. In Redemption, there are about an equal number of scenarios that are checked prior to activating a special ability and after a special ability activates.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #8 on:** November 11, 2011, 04:23:10 PM »

I agree with Underwood. Ultimately, that makes it simpler.

browarod · « **Reply #9 on:** November 11, 2011, 06:06:43 PM »

But you can already play Horses enhancements in that scenario, they interrupt.........

The difference I see between allowing Jashar and, say, Answer to Prayer is that Jashar actually BECOMES an interrupt/negate if that's what you copy. AtP is trying to bring in another card that interrupts/negates, which is different.

STAMP · « **Reply #10 on:** November 11, 2011, 07:24:40 PM »

Quote from: browarod on November 11, 2011, 06:06:43 PM

But you can already play Horses enhancements in that scenario, they interrupt.........

The difference I see between allowing Jashar and, say, Answer to Prayer is that Jashar actually BECOMES an interrupt/negate if that's what you copy. AtP is trying to bring in another card that interrupts/negates, which is different.

Another good point. This issue is like a see-saw. $:-\$

SomeKittens · « **Reply #11 on:** November 11, 2011, 07:36:18 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on November 11, 2011, 11:01:54 AM

This basically comes down to one question:

When a player has "special initiative", they can ONLY play an enhancement that interrupts or negates the special ability that caused the "special initiative". Do we check to make sure that an enhancement fits that description BEFORE or AFTER the special ability has activated?

If the answer is BEFORE, then you could not play Book of Jashar, because it is not an innately an interrupt or negate.

If the answer is AFTER, then you could play Book of Jashar, but that would also mean that we would have to start letting people play enhancements like Pride of Simon in cases where their special ability brings back an interrupt or negate from the discard pile...or Answer to Prayer which could bring an interrupt or negate from the draw pile...or even a "horses" enhancement which might pull an interrupt or negate from the top 2 cards...etc.

I think it makes the game a lot simpler if we rule that we have to decide BEFORE and enhancement is played whether it is an interrupt or negate, and thus Book of Jashar would NOT qualify.

Based on this, I'd say the answer is AFTER. All of the other examples pull other enhancements into battle.

spicynumber1 · « **Reply #12 on:** November 11, 2011, 10:19:59 PM »

Quote from: STAMP on November 11, 2011, 07:24:40 PM

Another good point. This issue is like a see-saw. $:-\$

Do we have a general consensus on this issue?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #13 on:** November 11, 2011, 10:33:17 PM »

From the New REG:

Ongoing Abilities > Copy > General Description
A copy ability causes one card to be treated as though it were another card.

Based on this quote, the copy card is treated as though it were a negate card, therefore it meets the requirement of special initiative.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #14 on:** November 11, 2011, 10:34:13 PM »

It must be before. Any card that has the potential to become something else is still at face value before it's played. Jashar is not an interrupt at face value, and therefore cannot be played via special initiative.

spicynumber1 · « **Reply #15 on:** November 11, 2011, 10:46:45 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on November 11, 2011, 10:33:17 PM

From the New REG:

Ongoing Abilities > Copy > General Description
A copy ability causes one card to be treated as though it were another card.

Based on this quote, the copy card is treated as though it were a negate card, therefore it meets the requirement of special initiative.

Gabe · « **Reply #16 on:** November 11, 2011, 10:53:27 PM »

Prof Underwood and Pol are correct. Pol sites the reason exactly. Book of Jashar is at face value until it's SA makes it copy something else. That SA is not active while it's in our hand, only after it's played.

Quote from: Minister Polarius on November 11, 2011, 10:34:13 PM

It must be before. Any card that has the potential to become something else is still at face value before it's played. Jashar is not an interrupt at face value, and therefore cannot be played via special initiative.

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on November 11, 2011, 10:33:17 PM

From the New REG:

Ongoing Abilities > Copy > General Description
A copy ability causes one card to be treated as though it were another card.

This REG quote is absolutely correct. The part that some have overlooked is that the copy card is not copying anything while it's in your hand/deck or discard pile.

browarod · « **Reply #17 on:** November 11, 2011, 11:44:18 PM »

Then how exactly do conditional CBP/CBN actually make the abilities work if a negate all is active before they're played? If cards are at face value, they can't be being "used" by anything at the time so how do they enter play and be able to activate? It has the potential to be CBN/CBP if used by a specific character, but you don't know who it's being used by until it's in play, which is after it is being negated.

Gabe · « **Reply #18 on:** November 12, 2011, 12:01:19 AM »

Quote from: browarod on November 11, 2011, 11:44:18 PM

Then how exactly do conditional CBP/CBN actually make the abilities work if a negate all is active before they're played? If cards are at face value, they can't be being "used" by anything at the time so how do they enter play and be able to activate? It has the potential to be CBN/CBP if used by a specific character, but you don't know who it's being used by until it's in play, which is after it is being negated.

You're comparing apples and oranges and trying to make sense of it all. If you're really confused by CBP and CBN you should start a new thread with your question.

browarod · « **Reply #19 on:** November 12, 2011, 12:20:54 AM »

What is it with you and "make a thread with your question" lately? Can you not just simply answer questions anymore? Have I done something to offend you?

Also, you say that they're apples/oranges but you don't say why. Ehud's Dagger is at face value (a normal enhancement) until its SA checks if the hero using it is a Judge. Jashar is at face value (a normal enhancement) until its SA gives it the ability of a different enhancement. I really don't see how one is an "apple" and one an "orange." They both are one way before activating and another way after activating. If you're going to insist that they're different and that my question is unrelated and MUST have a completely separate thread, then I'd appreciate it if you explain why.

Gabe · « **Reply #20 on:** November 12, 2011, 01:08:31 AM »

I'm not against you, man. Please don't take this that way.

I notice you like to take rulings and debate them for several posts, sometimes several pages. There's nothing wrong with that if you have the time.

I drop in here to try to help you guys out with a ruling or deck advice when I can. I have a family, job and other responsibilities that leave me a lot less time for Redemption that I used to have. I don't have the time or interest in debating rulings. When I tell you to start a thread with your questions I'm just trying to point you to a place where you can get the in depth discussion you seek since I cannot offer that to you.

I hope that makes it clear that it's nothing personal. I still have as much love for you as I did last time we saw one another face to face.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #21 on:** November 12, 2011, 09:55:37 AM »

Quote from: Gabe on November 12, 2011, 01:08:31 AM

I still have as much love for you as I did last time we saw one another face to face.

Well that explains why you don't love me, then. I've never seen you face to face (or beard to beard).

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #22 on:** November 12, 2011, 10:38:51 AM »

Quote from: browarod on November 12, 2011, 12:20:54 AM

Also, you say that they're apples/oranges but you don't say why. Ehud's Dagger is at face value (a normal enhancement) until its SA checks if the hero using it is a Judge. Jashar is at face value (a normal enhancement) until its SA gives it the ability of a different enhancement.

The difference (IMO) is that Ehud's Dagger can be played (since it meets the requirement of being a negate card), but then do nothing (if the conditions of the negate are not met). Whereas the ruling here suggests that Book of Jashar can not even be played, since it does not meet the requirement for special initiative until after it is played.

This would beg the question as to whether or not you can play a negate card for special initiative, even if you know it won't work. That would be a question for another thread.

CJSports · « **Reply #23 on:** November 12, 2011, 10:46:16 AM »

So is the final consensus that BoJ can't be played as a negate? I got so lost in the thread I had a hard enough time figuring out what all this jibber jabber was about.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #24 on:** November 12, 2011, 10:55:10 AM »

Quote from: CJSports on November 12, 2011, 10:46:16 AM

So is the final consensus that BoJ can't be played as a negate?

Yes. Prof Underwood and Gabe are both Elders, and they agree.

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Author Topic: Book of Jashar (Read 3916 times)

browarod

Chronic Apathy

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