Author Topic: Birth Foretold vs Mayhem (Read 4431 times)

browarod · « **Reply #25 on:** January 31, 2012, 05:46:37 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on January 31, 2012, 04:58:17 PM

Quote from: browarod on January 31, 2012, 04:56:01 PM
Quote from: Chronic Apathy on January 31, 2012, 04:01:57 PM
Except you can definitely play dominants to get them of your hand. The only way you can do that is if they do enter play.
I never said you couldn't. Am I missing something in the rules that says cards have to "enter play" to leave your hand?

I'm not sure what else "playing" a dominant would do, but put them in play.

Um, activating its special ability, just like any other card? Fortresses that play to set aside never "enter play" yet are still "played" so I see no reason why a dominant can't be "played" without ever "enter(ing) play."

lp670sv · « **Reply #26 on:** January 31, 2012, 08:43:44 PM »

Quote from: browarod on January 31, 2012, 05:46:37 PM

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on January 31, 2012, 04:58:17 PM
Quote from: browarod on January 31, 2012, 04:56:01 PM
Quote from: Chronic Apathy on January 31, 2012, 04:01:57 PM
Except you can definitely play dominants to get them of your hand. The only way you can do that is if they do enter play.
I never said you couldn't. Am I missing something in the rules that says cards have to "enter play" to leave your hand?

I'm not sure what else "playing" a dominant would do, but put them in play.
Um, activating its special ability, just like any other card? Fortresses that play to set aside never "enter play" yet are still "played" so I see no reason why a dominant can't be "played" without ever "enter(ing) play."

and if it doesn't specify, such as with fortresses that play to set aside, it defaults to what? In play.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #27 on:** January 31, 2012, 08:57:21 PM »

So your argument is that there's some nether zone that's never discussed anywhere in the REG or the rulebook that dominants go to before they're discarded? You can't just put them in the discard pile, because that's a discard, which is different.

browarod · « **Reply #28 on:** February 01, 2012, 12:32:52 AM »

No, there's no nether zone. But you guys still have yet to explain where they go if you're so sure they go to play. Where in play do they go? Why do they even have to go anywhere?

Red Warrior · « **Reply #29 on:** February 02, 2012, 12:40:33 AM »

I'd really like some resolution to this ruling. As one of many people teaching the "next generation" of Redemption players, I want to make sure the things I'm teaching are correct and not "bad habits". No major ruling hinges on this yet (just the prospect of Judas Plot becoming less useful). It's just good to know proper technique.

I have my students play a dominant by showing the card, then placing it in the discard pile. This helps to avoid the allusion that they are good/evil enhancements or (sadly) attempt to get negated by noobs, lol. "I negate your Christian Martyr with Burning Bush" hooold on there Billy!

galadgawyn · « **Reply #30 on:** February 02, 2012, 01:41:23 AM »

Quote

Um, activating its special ability, just like any other card? Fortresses that play to set aside never "enter play" yet are still "played" so I see no reason why a dominant can't be "played" without ever "enter(ing) play."

I thought it was ruled that set-aside fortresses DO enter play first and then immediately go to set-aside. This means that if they already have placed Destructive Sin on you, then it will stop Fishing Boat by keeping it in territory.

It seems obvious that a Dominant that is played enters play. I tried to find the new definition for play but I couldn't; maybe that should be added to the faq list?

I'm not sure where in play the Dominant would go to but I would guess that it is your own territory. It hasn't mattered much yet but it should be defined.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #31 on:** February 02, 2012, 11:13:35 AM »

Quote from: browarod on February 01, 2012, 12:32:52 AM

No, there's no nether zone. But you guys still have yet to explain where they go if you're so sure they go to play. Where in play do they go? Why do they even have to go anywhere?

Because a dominant is played. As galadgawyn brought up (correctly - I definitely remember that ruling), fortresses do enter play before being set aside, as per the Destructive Sin v. Fishing Boat ruling. Essentially, this means that from hand, the only three places a card can be placed are deck, discard pile, and play. The first can only be done via special ability, the second can be done via game rule (discarding a card during the discard phase) and via special ability, and the third can be done via special ability or game rule. The ability to play dominants, using the word implies that the dominant, at some point or another, enters play. A further argument for this concept is that in the days of dominant slapjack (and even now, in some circumstances) the first dom to hit the table gets played first; why would they need to hit the table if they didn't enter play?

browarod · « **Reply #32 on:** February 02, 2012, 11:38:25 AM »

"Plays to set aside" as an identifier is CBN, so Destructive Sin can do nothing about cards such as D&A, and I have never been told that they ever enter play first (I mean really, it says right on the card that you play it to the set aside area, not play). If you're talking Fishing Boat/Chamber of Angels (where the special ability is setting it aside, not an identifier) then I'd agree that it enters the field of play and then sets itself aside so DS would negate the setting aside.

I have always played (and seen it played) as Red Warrior mentioned: that you reveal a dominant from your hand and then place it on the discard pile. I've never seen people (even at 2011 Nats) put doms "in play" before discarding them. The closest I have seen is people taking CM or AotL and using it to point out the character they're discarding, and sometimes people drop SoG/NJ from hand dramatically to grab their 4th and 5th for the win.

lp670sv · « **Reply #33 on:** February 02, 2012, 11:41:07 AM »

You are playing the dominant. It is not going to set aside. It is not going to a third, unknown zone. It is going in play. How could lampy stop dominants if they didn't go to play? I don't understand why this is such a question. If you play a card it goes to play unless it specifies somewhere else.

browarod · « **Reply #34 on:** February 02, 2012, 11:47:33 AM »

Lampy doesn't stop dominants, it protects cards (including some not in play, btw) FROM the dominants. It's not doing anything to the dominants themselves.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #35 on:** February 02, 2012, 11:52:07 AM »

I agree that the Lampy argument is a poor one, however, there's nothing to separate a "reveal and discard" from just a discard. There has to be something to separate the two.

browarod · « **Reply #36 on:** February 02, 2012, 11:58:05 AM »

Why? If I declare my intention to use the special ability of a dominant, carry the special ability out, and then put the card in my discard, is that not sufficiently different than me declaring my intention to discard a dominant without using its special ability? I would think the only time there might be confusion is during your discard phase (since you can't just "discard" a dominant any other time), and only then if someone is too quick to put the dominant into the discard pile.

STAMP · « **Reply #37 on:** February 02, 2012, 01:04:27 PM »

Quote from: browarod on February 02, 2012, 11:38:25 AM

I have always played (and seen it played) as Red Warrior mentioned: that you reveal a dominant from your hand and then place it on the discard pile. I've never seen people (even at 2011 Nats) put doms "in play" before discarding them. The closest I have seen is people taking CM or AotL and using it to point out the character they're discarding, and sometimes people drop SoG/NJ from hand dramatically to grab their 4th and 5th for the win.

I have always played dominants wherein I touch/place/point card at/on my target. The one exception is during multiplayer I will sometimes place my SoG/NJ in battle until I decide the targets. Many opponents I've played set the dominants on the table face-up in front of them.

The bottom line is that dominants are put in play to activate their SA. It's been that way since 1995. Whether we need the rules and REG to spell this out clearly is not my concern.

Which is why I find so much humor in Birth Foretold's SA.

Red Warrior · « **Reply #38 on:** February 03, 2012, 12:22:13 AM »

I could see the logic to either decision, and rest happily with either "Played in Play" or "Played to Discard Pile". The reality is that it is simply not clarified at this point.

Soooooo....

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Author Topic: Birth Foretold vs Mayhem (Read 4431 times)

browarod

Re: Birth Foretold vs Mayhem

lp670sv

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Chronic Apathy

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browarod

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Red Warrior

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galadgawyn

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Chronic Apathy

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browarod

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lp670sv

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browarod

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Chronic Apathy

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browarod

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STAMP

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Red Warrior

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