Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: bruce2213 on January 28, 2012, 12:08:46 AM
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Birth Foretold (Di)
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Silver • Ability: 1 / 4 • Class: Territory • Special Ability: Search deck for Isaac, Samson, John the Baptist, or Son of God. Protect cards with those titles from opponents' cards this turn
Mayhem
Type: Grim Reaper • Brigade: • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Each player must shuffle hand into deck to draw six. • Play As: Each player must shuffle [return] hand into deck to draw six
If I play Birth Foretold to search for Son of God then my opponent plays Mayhem does Son of God get shuffled into my deck or remain in my hand?
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I would say no, but wait for an elder to confirm.
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It gets shuffled into your deck. Birth Foretold defaults to play.
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It gets shuffled into your deck. Birth Foretold defaults to play.
correct, I asked this question before and got this answer from an elder, here's the thread if anyone wants to look at it.
http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/birth-foretold-question/
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If the protection on BF defaults to play, then why do we have exceptions for DnA and Chamber o' Angels? If Job would be discarded from your hand by an opponent, would he go to DnA? If yes, why can't BF protect cards in your hand, since it also specifies name?
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I believe the answer to your question is that the ruling is changed. IaH doesn't make Angels go to chamber anymore so...
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IaH still makes Angels go to chamber, but your opponent doesn't Discard.
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If the protection on BF defaults to play, then why do we have exceptions for DnA and Chamber o' Angels? If Job would be discarded from your hand by an opponent, would he go to DnA? If yes, why can't BF protect cards in your hand, since it also specifies name?
Those two are not targeting Job/Angels. They are instead abilities, which are targeting the ability that discards.
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IaH still makes Angels go to chamber, but your opponent doesn't Discard.
Oh that's right, I forgot about the instead part but I did here some kind of argument whether they would even go to chambers since they were never in play and chamber defaults to play.
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IaH still makes Angels go to chamber, but your opponent doesn't Discard.
Oh that's right, I forgot about the instead part but I did here some kind of argument whether they would even go to chambers since they were never in play and chamber defaults to play.
Chamber insteads IaH, which is in play.
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So... does BF protect SoG in any way shape or form? I'm not complaining if it doesn't... the protect on the Heroes is a fun enough kicker.
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So... does BF protect SoG in any way shape or form? I'm not complaining if it doesn't... the protect on the Heroes is a fun enough kicker.
No. Abilities default to play, even if they specifically target a card, apparently.
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How can it default to anything if it has a valid target? That would be like me defaulting to punch Randall when Whitsun made the pun. (SK is pretty much the only one that will get that)
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The game has always defaulted to "in play", which I am fine with. I was just wondering if there are any "in play" situations with SoG. Also... I've always played dominants into the discard pile, but I don't see anything in the REG about this: Are dominants ever in play?
If so, can SoG be protected from the "place" effect of Judas' Plot?
Judas’ Plot (Di)
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Crimson • Ability: 2 / 2 • Class: Territory • Special Ability: Place on your N.T. human Evil Character: If an opponent's good Dominant rescues or discards a card, discard this Enhancement instead to place that Dominant under deck. Protect bearer from conversion. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Mark 14:10 • Availability: Disciples booster packs ()
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Dominants are definitely placed in play before they are discarded. You can "play" a dominant even if there's no valid target (NJ by itself, or any evil doms while Lampstand is up) to get rid of it without entering the discard phase.
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How can it default to anything if it has a valid target? That would be like me defaulting to punch Randall when Whitsun made the pun. (SK is pretty much the only one that will get that)
Isn't that how it usually worked?
The game has always defaulted to "in play", which I am fine with. I was just wondering if there are any "in play" situations with SoG. Also... I've always played dominants into the discard pile, but I don't see anything in the REG about this: Are dominants ever in play?
If so, can SoG be protected from the "place" effect of Judas' Plot?
Judas’ Plot (Di)
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Crimson • Ability: 2 / 2 • Class: Territory • Special Ability: Place on your N.T. human Evil Character: If an opponent's good Dominant rescues or discards a card, discard this Enhancement instead to place that Dominant under deck. Protect bearer from conversion. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Mark 14:10 • Availability: Disciples booster packs ()
A tentative "yes" from here.
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I agree with Randall's second comment, regarding Judas' Plot. You can protect cards from Protection.
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Sometimes the puns blurred together and I wasn't sure who actually said it, so I may have hit the wrong person on occasion but it didn't make anymore sense than this ruling ::)
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The main argument against letting Son of God be protected by Birth Foretold is something I'm just now understanding. Abilities default to play, right? So if we say that Birth Foretold can protect Son of God, even if it's in hand, that means that if I play a card that says "discard a hero," I would be able to discard any hero, because it specifically specifies "hero".
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BF: "Yo, SoG! Dude, I've got your back."
SoG: "Protection?!? I don't need no stinkin' protection when I'm in play."
:P
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Dominants are definitely placed in play before they are discarded.
Oh? Which zone do they get played into? If I have a fortress that protects good cards in my territory from opponents, can I play SoG to my territory to protect it from Judas' Plot?
As far as I know, dominants do not enter the field of play when they are used (except, of course, for Glory of the Lord and Doubt).
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As far as I know, dominants do not enter the field of play when they are used (except, of course, for Glory of the Lord and Doubt).
Except you can definitely play dominants to get them of your hand. The only way you can do that is if they do enter play.
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As far as I know, dominants do not enter the field of play when they are used (except, of course, for Glory of the Lord and Doubt).
Except you can definitely play dominants to get them of your hand. The only way you can do that is if they do enter play.
I'd say they enter something. Given there's no context, "play" sounds good.
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Except you can definitely play dominants to get them of your hand. The only way you can do that is if they do enter play.
I never said you couldn't. Am I missing something in the rules that says cards have to "enter play" to leave your hand?
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Except you can definitely play dominants to get them of your hand. The only way you can do that is if they do enter play.
I never said you couldn't. Am I missing something in the rules that says cards have to "enter play" to leave your hand?
I'm not sure what else "playing" a dominant would do, but put them in play.
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Except you can definitely play dominants to get them of your hand. The only way you can do that is if they do enter play.
I never said you couldn't. Am I missing something in the rules that says cards have to "enter play" to leave your hand?
I'm not sure what else "playing" a dominant would do, but put them in play.
Um, activating its special ability, just like any other card? Fortresses that play to set aside never "enter play" yet are still "played" so I see no reason why a dominant can't be "played" without ever "enter(ing) play."
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Except you can definitely play dominants to get them of your hand. The only way you can do that is if they do enter play.
I never said you couldn't. Am I missing something in the rules that says cards have to "enter play" to leave your hand?
I'm not sure what else "playing" a dominant would do, but put them in play.
Um, activating its special ability, just like any other card? Fortresses that play to set aside never "enter play" yet are still "played" so I see no reason why a dominant can't be "played" without ever "enter(ing) play."
and if it doesn't specify, such as with fortresses that play to set aside, it defaults to what? In play.
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So your argument is that there's some nether zone that's never discussed anywhere in the REG or the rulebook that dominants go to before they're discarded? You can't just put them in the discard pile, because that's a discard, which is different.
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No, there's no nether zone. But you guys still have yet to explain where they go if you're so sure they go to play. Where in play do they go? Why do they even have to go anywhere?
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I'd really like some resolution to this ruling. As one of many people teaching the "next generation" of Redemption players, I want to make sure the things I'm teaching are correct and not "bad habits". No major ruling hinges on this yet (just the prospect of Judas Plot becoming less useful). It's just good to know proper technique.
I have my students play a dominant by showing the card, then placing it in the discard pile. This helps to avoid the allusion that they are good/evil enhancements or (sadly) attempt to get negated by noobs, lol. "I negate your Christian Martyr with Burning Bush" hooold on there Billy!
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Um, activating its special ability, just like any other card? Fortresses that play to set aside never "enter play" yet are still "played" so I see no reason why a dominant can't be "played" without ever "enter(ing) play."
I thought it was ruled that set-aside fortresses DO enter play first and then immediately go to set-aside. This means that if they already have placed Destructive Sin on you, then it will stop Fishing Boat by keeping it in territory.
It seems obvious that a Dominant that is played enters play. I tried to find the new definition for play but I couldn't; maybe that should be added to the faq list?
I'm not sure where in play the Dominant would go to but I would guess that it is your own territory. It hasn't mattered much yet but it should be defined.
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No, there's no nether zone. But you guys still have yet to explain where they go if you're so sure they go to play. Where in play do they go? Why do they even have to go anywhere?
Because a dominant is played. As galadgawyn brought up (correctly - I definitely remember that ruling), fortresses do enter play before being set aside, as per the Destructive Sin v. Fishing Boat ruling. Essentially, this means that from hand, the only three places a card can be placed are deck, discard pile, and play. The first can only be done via special ability, the second can be done via game rule (discarding a card during the discard phase) and via special ability, and the third can be done via special ability or game rule. The ability to play dominants, using the word implies that the dominant, at some point or another, enters play. A further argument for this concept is that in the days of dominant slapjack (and even now, in some circumstances) the first dom to hit the table gets played first; why would they need to hit the table if they didn't enter play?
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"Plays to set aside" as an identifier is CBN, so Destructive Sin can do nothing about cards such as D&A, and I have never been told that they ever enter play first (I mean really, it says right on the card that you play it to the set aside area, not play). If you're talking Fishing Boat/Chamber of Angels (where the special ability is setting it aside, not an identifier) then I'd agree that it enters the field of play and then sets itself aside so DS would negate the setting aside.
I have always played (and seen it played) as Red Warrior mentioned: that you reveal a dominant from your hand and then place it on the discard pile. I've never seen people (even at 2011 Nats) put doms "in play" before discarding them. The closest I have seen is people taking CM or AotL and using it to point out the character they're discarding, and sometimes people drop SoG/NJ from hand dramatically to grab their 4th and 5th for the win.
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You are playing the dominant. It is not going to set aside. It is not going to a third, unknown zone. It is going in play. How could lampy stop dominants if they didn't go to play? I don't understand why this is such a question. If you play a card it goes to play unless it specifies somewhere else.
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Lampy doesn't stop dominants, it protects cards (including some not in play, btw) FROM the dominants. It's not doing anything to the dominants themselves.
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I agree that the Lampy argument is a poor one, however, there's nothing to separate a "reveal and discard" from just a discard. There has to be something to separate the two.
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Why? If I declare my intention to use the special ability of a dominant, carry the special ability out, and then put the card in my discard, is that not sufficiently different than me declaring my intention to discard a dominant without using its special ability? I would think the only time there might be confusion is during your discard phase (since you can't just "discard" a dominant any other time), and only then if someone is too quick to put the dominant into the discard pile.
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I have always played (and seen it played) as Red Warrior mentioned: that you reveal a dominant from your hand and then place it on the discard pile. I've never seen people (even at 2011 Nats) put doms "in play" before discarding them. The closest I have seen is people taking CM or AotL and using it to point out the character they're discarding, and sometimes people drop SoG/NJ from hand dramatically to grab their 4th and 5th for the win.
I have always played dominants wherein I touch/place/point card at/on my target. The one exception is during multiplayer I will sometimes place my SoG/NJ in battle until I decide the targets. Many opponents I've played set the dominants on the table face-up in front of them.
The bottom line is that dominants are put in play to activate their SA. It's been that way since 1995. Whether we need the rules and REG to spell this out clearly is not my concern.
Which is why I find so much humor in Birth Foretold's SA. :laugh:
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I could see the logic to either decision, and rest happily with either "Played in Play" or "Played to Discard Pile". The reality is that it is simply not clarified at this point.
Soooooo.... :bump: