Cactus Game Design Message Boards

If player one uses Birth Foretold to search for SoG, and player two plays Mayhem, what happens?

Quote from: Thomas Hunter on January 04, 2014, 02:07:44 PM

If player one uses Birth Foretold to search for SoG, and player two plays Mayhem, what happens?

It is important to note that Player 2 cannot play a card until Player 1 finishes the Search ability, which includes shuffling the deck afterward. Player 1 can announce at any time during this process that they will be playing SoG, and there is nothing Player 2 can do to stop it. If Player 1 is planning on playing SoG, they can do that immediately after finishing shuffling, and it would take precedence over Mayhem. If, however, Player 1 is uncertain about whether they want to play SoG, and they do not announce their intent, and do not make a reasonably immediate attempt to play it once they are done shuffling, then Player 2 may play Mayhem and SoG will get shuffled.

There is plenty of talk about "responding to actions" and "slapjack," but ultimately, if you are searching for SoG, you need to announce your intentions to play it before you finish shuffling to complete the Search ability. That is the safest way to avoid a judge having to make a ruling that you may not like. 

Respectfully, you seem to forget that Birth Foretold protects SoG from opponents until the end of the turn.

Unfortunately, SoG is also shuffled if Mayhem is played.  Birth Foretold's protection defaults to play.

So wait....we can't play a Dom until the blocker or rescuer finish the ability on hero/Ec? For instance, if I want to Grapes or AotL Goliath promo, I have to wait til his ability is finished?

No card can be played during the resolution of an ability, period.  Not even dominants.  Abilities ALWAYS finish when they start, and nothing else can be played until all abilities are finished activating.

Sorry, I don't really understand that, because it would be madness if I could throw down cards while other abilities are being resolved.  It doesn't make sense to be able to AotL someone as soon as they block so that their ability doesn't go off; they were still played, so the ability still happens.  Just AotL them immediately afterwards.

  Just AotL them immediately afterwards.

To expand on that---> wait until they ask you for initiative. When they do, play it for sure if you are not confident you can with the battle based on numbers or an enhancement from hand. On the off chance that they mess up, don't ask for initiative, and play an enhancement you essentially have an opportunity to (hopefully) negate what they play without burning a dominant. If they blunder into an auto win ( like Hamans plot or Death of Unrighteousness) announce that you wanted to play Angel of the Lord and you will win any ruling contention that comes up because they did not ask for initiative. This little trick can save you a dominant for the next rescue.

No, if they don't ask for initiative you don't just get to say you wanted to play AotL.  If there was enough time for you to play a dominant, and you did not, you lost your chance.  Most players ask if they have initiative as a courtesy and to be sure, but if they wait a few moments and play, then they were well within their rights by the rules.  You can't say "No, I was going to play a dominant" if they gave you the opportunity and you did not act.

If you do not act immediately, you lost your chance.

Its not really a mistake on their part if they pause for around 3-5 seconds and respectfully wait, however, it won't look very good to judges who generally discourage slap stick. I am talking about when your opponent goes directly from the block to playing a card. More specifically, when a player places the evil character in battle and makes an immediate emotion to hand and grabs a card. So then the best argument to a judge goes along the lines of: I was respectfully waiting for my opponent to play Grapes of Wrath/Vain Philosophy (because he has first priority in a bang bang situation to do so) and therefore did not want to telegraph my Angel of the Lord to try and beat him out.  And you wouldn't really be half wrong (strategy wise or ethically) in hesitating because using Vain/Grapes post block is a common play to undermine Angel of the Lord. After that your job is to think on your feet and negate it if you can win the battle or play Angel right away and make your argument to the judges if your opponent objects. All I was trying to point out is that you shouldn't play your Angel of the Lord to fast in the rare chance that you may be a able to save it.

Quote from: Redoubter on January 04, 2014, 05:10:27 PM

Unfortunately, SoG is also shuffled if Mayhem is played.  Birth Foretold's protection defaults to play.

And this is what I was looking for. Thank you!
So it would also not protect from Vain Philosophy, either, correct?

It would not.

And TheHobbit, I was mostly responding to you talking about it as a tactic to be able to use AotL if they play something you cannot negate.

On the off chance that they mess up, don't ask for initiative, and play an enhancement you essentially have an opportunity to (hopefully) negate what they play without burning a dominant. If they blunder into an auto win ( like Hamans plot or Death of Unrighteousness) announce that you wanted to play Angel of the Lord and you will win any ruling contention that comes up because they did not ask for initiative. This little trick can save you a dominant for the next rescue.

You can't look at the enhancement to see if it is something you could negate, then decide whether to call the judge over to say you wanted to play AotL.  If you truly intended to play AotL, then you need to say so immediately after they slap down an enhancement without waiting for you to play doms, without respect to what they actually played.  You either intended to play AotL or you didn't, and you can't decide you wanted to or not based on if you can stop the block.

You can't look at the enhancement to see if it is something you could negate, then decide whether to call the judge over to say you wanted to play AotL.  If you truly intended to play AotL, then you need to say so immediately after they slap down an enhancement without waiting for you to play doms, without respect to what they actually played.  You either intended to play AotL or you didn't, and you can't decide you wanted to or not based on if you can stop the block.

Intentions to play dominants are not contingent only on characters blocking, they are contingent on everything that is going on in the game. Its not really a good argument to reward someone who misplays over someone who is entirely withing the rules. In reality it comes down to this scenario.

 Bob attacks with Samuel and have Edict in my hand. Bob's opponent Jerry is playing brown. Being the astute player Bob is he knows with great certainty that Jerry has Gib Tricks, Dungeons and Plots up his sleeve.  So then If  Jerry blocks with a low evil character Bob will want to Angel of the Lord him with great certainty because Jerry is more likely to play his auto wins first and probably has some. Bob is also worried about Jerry using Vain Philosophy and/or Grapes and I knows that if his opponent blocks and reaches for a card in a bang bang play he is likely trying to circumnavigate Angel of the Lord. Since Jerry would be responding to his own action this would be a legal and very strategic play. Thus when Jerry does indeed block him with a 2/2 evil character and reaches for a card in his hand and plays it right away (note Bob is waiting to see if its Grapes or Vain). Jerry, however, plays a perfectly negatable DoM. Bob, being the astute player he is, takes Angel of the Lord out of its priority slot in his and and proceeds to play Samuels Edict to win the battle. Bob takes advantage of his opponents hasty play of an enhancement within the rules. If Jerry, on the other hand, plays Haman's Plot Bob knows his rescue attempt is lost and can forgot about edict. Bob, again being the astute player that he is, has Angel of the Lord ready to go anyways and throws it down declaring that A) Jerry did not ask for initiative to play Angel of the Lord and B) Jerry had the audacity to play play plot immediately without a pause.

The moral of the story is to wait to play Angel of the Lord if your opponent is obviously going for a bang bang play. And, regardless of this scenario, almost always wait if you are playing a Gray defense as Gold Shield and Balaam's Disobedience are some of the more popular tricks gray has but can be beaten with Angel of the Lord.

Playing an enhancement is the same motion as playing Grapes of Wrath. So does Haman's Plot then have the same priority as Grapes of Wrath?

If I block and immediately play an enhancement in the same motion, I deprived you of the option of playing doms if you so wished, and you can immediately call attention to that if you intended to play one. 

Right then Jerry would call a judge over and he could essentially insert his Aotl in front of his opponents Plot. We agree, that is what I was getting at. Advantage to Bob because he knows Jerry has Plot.

You may disagree, but that is the way that the rules work, and I would rule against you if you tried to pull that 'trick' (as you called it).  It is not how the rules work.

If Jerry played Dungeon of Malachi Bob would not call a judge over he would just play Samuels Edict. Again Advantage to Bob because he has saved Angel of the Lord until a later date.

Wow! I wasn't trying to have you guys argue about this....lol! It just wasn't making any sense to me is all.  I was just thinking of a certain scenario that happened during a game.  I went in for a rescue (character and ability doesn't matter).  My opponent was using babs defense and blocked with Nerg with swift horses attached.  Other babs were in play so his enhancement couldnt' be negated. I did not want him bringing out Great Image because all my heroes were out. So I AotL'd him immediately.  That's why I asked about Goliath as well.  I was using TGT and had the white ladies band chain up and then he brought out Goliath from hand and returned them all.  The only reason why I had to return them is because I didn't have TGT out yet. So I had to.  Normally when he brings Goliath out I AotL him immediately.  That's why I asked (sorry its dermo just under my bros account).