Cactus Game Design Message Boards

If the reason was to shorten it, I think things like that should be avoided. It wouldn't have ruined the card to change it a bit. Knowing the history of split altar, even dozens of playtesters seem to forget things default to play. How do you expect hundreds of other players, specifically ones that don't follow the boards well, to know this?

Knowing the history of split altar, even dozens of playtesters seem to forget things default to play. How do you expect hundreds of other players, specifically ones that don't follow the boards well, to know this?

First, there were no "dozens of playtesters" for that set.  There were 8 proofreaders, and less than half of us playtested with our playgroups.
Second, that was in 2007-2008, 3 years ago.  Playtesters are much more aware of the default "in play" rule now.  
Third, I'd be willing to bet that many of us DID remember that rule when we wrote and proofread the card.  We just didn't notice that it wasn't there.  If you don't catch an error the first time you read it, and then nothing on that card changes in several drafts, you tend not to look at that card again, assuming that everything is "still fine."  In retrospect, we should have had more eyes on that project.  8 proofreaders/playtesters back then (plus Rob) was probably not enough.  In fact, I never actually playtested Split Altar personally.  If I had, I might have caught it.  For some reason, seeing the card on my mockup, or writing it out on a post-it note, and also using it in a game, makes me notice wording a lot more than just reading it on a computer screen.
Fourth, I apologize again for not catching it myself.  Players sometimes think that they would not make mistakes if they were playtesters.  I used to think that, too.  
Finally, I am very, very happy with our current playtest team.  The dozen or so gentlemen that Rob has assembled include rules experts, grammar pros, detail-watchers, at least one very careful spelling checker, people with knowledge of the vast collection of cards from the past 16 years of Redemption, creative types, deck-building masters, strategic thinkers, Type 2 champions, Type 1 champions, multi-player fans, teams fans, Booster Draft fans, players who love speed decks, players who don't like speed decks, players who love themes, players who will ignore themes and build the best deck possible, and players who will try to break any card we try to make.  Not only that, but some of us are playtesting with our playgroups, or online, where even more people are putting eyes on the cards.  There are multiple themes and mini-themes that will make their debut this summer, and you can be assured of a few things:
1) Redemption will have MORE variety in deck building (though the new themes might remain popular for a while based on their sheer newness).
2) There will be new favorite heroes and evil characters
3) You will do certain things with certain cards that you have never done before (a new cost, a new effect, etc.)
4) Thad and CP will have some counters
5) There will be cards that frustrate some players, like Thad and CP did last year.  We may or may not know what those cards are yet.  

players who will try to break any card we try to make.  

I'm one of those people. I haven't broken anything this year, I promise.

1) Redemption will have MORE variety in deck building (though the new themes might remain popular for a while based on their sheer newness).
2) There will be new favorite heroes and evil characters
3) You will do certain things with certain cards that you have never done before (a new cost, a new effect, etc.)
4) Thad and CP will have some counters
5) There will be cards that frustrate some players, like Thad and CP did last year.  We may or may not know what those cards are yet. 

Don't forget the new card type!

Otherwise, it might sound to some players that this is a special case, rather than the default rule.

The only problem with this is that it IS a special case, or at least there is precedent (within this same set, even (see: Dust and Ashes)) that it is. Cards which refer to other cards by specific name sometimes can target those cards even when they're not in play.  Am I making sense?

Quote from: browarod on April 01, 2011, 01:40:28 PM

Cards which refer to other cards by specific name sometimes can target those cards even when they're not in play.

That is NOT true.

So does that mean that Prince of the Air doesn't work?

Prince of the Air (Pi)
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Orange • Ability: 10 / 11 • Class: None • Special Ability: Return an angel in battle (except warrior class) to owner’s territory. If block is successful, place one Chamber of Angels and its contents beneath owner’s draw pile. Cannot be negated. • Play As: Return one non-warrior class angel in battle to owner’s territory. If block is successful, place one Chamber of Angels and its contents beneath owner’s deck. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: NT Male Demon • Verse: Ephesians 2:2 • Availability: Priests booster packs (Rare)

Quote from: browarod on April 01, 2011, 01:40:28 PM

Cards which refer to other cards by specific name sometimes can target those cards even when they're not in play.

That is NOT true.  There is no such rule in Redemption.  As I've already said in this thread, the second sentence of Dust and Ashes does not target Job.  The targeting is done by whatever other card targeted Job.  Dust and Ashes only replaces that effect.

The part of Dust and Ashes that DOES target Job is the first sentence: search discard pile for Job.

...If I discard a card from your hand, or the top card of the deck, and it is an angel, the angel goes to Chamber.  It always has.  Nothing is changing about that.  But Chamber does not say "If your angel is discarded FROM PLAY..."  It just says "If your angel is discarded,..."

It is exactly the same with Dust and Ashes.  "If your Job is harmed or defeated by an opponent,..." works just the same as "If your angel is discarded..."

The answer I gave on the playtester side of the board was not really intended to be a final wording for a ruling.  I was just answering a question how I thought it should work and none of the playtesters disagreed.  If anyone has a suggestion for a better way to word it, please help.  Helping is better than mocking and insulting.

The traditional ruling that cards default to play unless otherwise specified is still true.  This new rule is just stating what one of those "specified" situations is.  The idea is that if a card refers to a specific card (ie. D&A targeting Job, or Prince of the Air targeting Chamber of Angels), then it targets that card even if it is NOT in play (ie. set aside).

I am trying to understand why SoG is not protected from Mayhem, Ill read the post again and come back...

The quote from Prof Underwood from January 15 is not correct, as far as I know.

Specifying a card title does not change the rule that in order to target a card not in play, you must specify the location of the card.

Prince of the Air only targets Chamber because Prince of the Air got errata which specifies "Chamber in set aside area."

Instead abilities that send cards to new destinations, such as on Dust and Ashes and Chamber of Angels, don't target anything.  They only replace special abilities.  The targeting is still done by the original card.  So, for example, Christian Martyr targets TSA.  Chamber simply changes that discard outcome into a "place in Chamber" outcome.

The second special ability on Prince of the Air would do nothing ever without errata.

But all of Split Altar's parts still work:
- shuffle all opponents' artifacts in play into deck
- play the next enhancement
- CBN

If Split Altar were a common, people would think it is a decent card, especially with Hidden Treasures.

But promos are not all amazing.  Even Nationals promos.  I know that players think that a nationals promo somehow "deserves" to be a tier 1 card, but I really don't see why it absolutely must be that way.

But promos are not all amazing.  Even Nationals promos.  I know that players think that a nationals promo somehow "deserves" to be a tier 1 card, but I really don't see why it absolutely must be that way.

Because then it'd be worth more and I want to make money going to nats by winning every category/getting expensive promos.

You heard it here, guys. Split Altar can shuffle unlimited, meaning a deck can have unlimited, meaning there is no deck limit. Waiting on one more elder.

There's only like 6.7B people in the world. Unless people play two decks in the same game, but then the number of cards come into play. Unless you're using Redemption live. So point retracted.

Ones I can think of from memory: Charms, Cross Beams, Priestly Breastplate (assuming it works as intended rather than as printed), Temple holding an artifact, Altar of Dagon in Temple of Dagon, and Writ or 30 Pieces in High Priests' Palace. By my count, that's 6. If the artifact in the Temple is Book of the Covenant with 2 Covenants on it, the number becomes 8. 4 players x 8 artifacts = 32 artifacts Split Altar would shuffle (yay for basic math).

That being said, please don't make any more mistakes or erratas with green.   

Because that, too, is getting old.