Author Topic: Benefiting from Troubles (Read 3717 times)

sepjazzwarrior · « **on:** July 01, 2012, 01:21:33 PM »

How does this work? Does it steal the numbers of the EC to the enhancement and leave the EC with 0/0 numbers, killing it?

Benefiting from Troubles (Ap)

Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Blue • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Redirect abilities (*/*) of one Evil Character in battle back on the Evil Character(s) in battle. •

megamanlan · « **Reply #1 on:** July 01, 2012, 02:29:12 PM »

That is what I heard it does... But I'm not sure.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #2 on:** July 01, 2012, 02:48:19 PM »

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on July 01, 2012, 01:21:33 PM

How does this work? Does it steal the numbers of the EC to the enhancement and leave the EC with 0/0 numbers, killing it?

Benefiting from Troubles (Ap)

Type: Hero Enh. Brigade: Blue Ability: None Class: None Special Ability: Redirect abilities (*/*) of one Evil Character in battle back on the Evil Character(s) in battle.

Yes. Because of the new ruling that */0 ECs are immediately discarded in battle, BfT is a battle winner.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

CJSports · « **Reply #3 on:** July 01, 2012, 03:24:18 PM »

But when it says redirecting them back to the evil characters in battle doesn't that mean just give it back to them? I always thought it was a useless card because it took the EC's numbers then gave it back.

Chris · « **Reply #4 on:** July 01, 2012, 03:27:04 PM »

Quote from: CJSports on July 01, 2012, 03:24:18 PM

But when it says redirecting them back to the evil characters in battle doesn't that mean just give it back to them? I always thought it was a useless card because it took the EC's numbers then gave it back.

Based on the definition of redirect in the REG, it sounds like the hero is simply taking those numbers and using them against the evil character, effectively adding them to the hero. The wording is admittedly awkward, but hey, it's an Apostles card.

Minion of Jesus · « **Reply #5 on:** July 01, 2012, 05:04:09 PM »

That got used in booster once. It was kind of painful for Ciaphas.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #6 on:** July 02, 2012, 10:02:55 AM »

I'm not sure I agree that this should be a battle winner as described. The EC is not being reduced to zero. Redirect is not reduce. The numbers are still there, they are just being used by the hero instead.

TimMierz · « **Reply #7 on:** July 02, 2012, 10:15:54 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on July 02, 2012, 10:02:55 AM

I'm not sure I agree that this should be a battle winner as described. The EC is not being reduced to zero. Redirect is not reduce. The numbers are still there, they are just being used by the hero instead.

From the REG: Instant Abilities > Redirect > How To Play > Redirecting Numbers (Strength and Toughness):
"Numbers (strength and toughness) can be redirected without being interrupted. Redirecting numbers reduces the numbers (strength and toughness) of the target by the amount redirected and increases the numbers (strength and toughness) of the redirecting card by the same amount."

Sounds like the EC is in fact being reduced. Wow, I can't believe BFT actually is useful.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #8 on:** July 02, 2012, 10:20:18 AM »

Quote from: TimMierz on July 02, 2012, 10:15:54 AM

Sounds like the EC is in fact being reduced. Wow, I can't believe BFT actually is useful.

I can't believe they changed the definition of redirect that much from the old REG. Now I guess I'm going to have to read every single sentence of the new REG to see what other major changes have occurred, since they affect cards like BFT.

I tried reading the whole new REG back when it was first released, but the new wording was giving me a headache.

Chris · « **Reply #9 on:** July 02, 2012, 10:32:00 AM »

I don't think it's that much of a change, simply because if this wasn't the way it was played, it would be entirely inconsistent when redirecting abilities as opposed to redirecting special abilities.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #10 on:** July 02, 2012, 10:36:50 AM »

Quote from: Chris on July 02, 2012, 10:32:00 AM

I don't think it's that much of a change, simply because if this wasn't the way it was played, it would be entirely inconsistent when redirecting abilities as opposed to redirecting special abilities.

Reduce vs. Instead is a very big change. Does this mean that if an EC redirects a banding ability on a hero that the hero is no longer a banding card?

TheJaylor · « **Reply #11 on:** July 02, 2012, 01:21:21 PM »

So, can you redirect a CBN enhancement then and would it cancel the ability?

Chris · « **Reply #12 on:** July 02, 2012, 01:23:30 PM »

Quote from: KoalaKingoFA on July 02, 2012, 01:21:21 PM

So, can you redirect a CBN enhancement then and would it cancel the ability?

No. You would have to interrupt the ability first, which cannot be done.

TheJaylor · « **Reply #13 on:** July 02, 2012, 01:33:12 PM »

Quote from: Chris on July 02, 2012, 01:23:30 PM

Quote from: KoalaKingoFA on July 02, 2012, 01:21:21 PM
So, can you redirect a CBN enhancement then and would it cancel the ability?

No. You would have to interrupt the ability first, which cannot be done.

But if it wasn't actually killing you then you wouldn't have to interrupt it then, right? For example, if I'm attacked and then I block and play a negate-able battle-winner and then my opponent plays a CBN negate making it my regular initiative again. Can I play Denying Blame to redirect the negate?

Minion of Jesus · « **Reply #14 on:** July 02, 2012, 01:41:57 PM »

In the rules it says that an enhancement that cannot be negated cannot be redirected either.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #15 on:** July 02, 2012, 02:41:51 PM »

There is an "interrupt and..." assumed on any instance of "redirect." Some cards have it spelled out because they were made before it became standardized, but redirect always has an interrupt funciton.

@YMT, you're way overreacting. I think Benefitting from Troubles is the only card in the entire game that redirects abilities. For that matter, there are only like five that redirect anything period. You're also trying to apply the definition of redirecting abilities to redirecting special abilities, which is different.

TimMierz · « **Reply #16 on:** July 02, 2012, 03:33:25 PM »

Here are all the cards that include "redirect":

Benefiting from Troubles (Redirect */* abilities of one EC)
Carelessness (Interrupt and redirect special abilities of female Heroes and enhancements played with them)
Counsel of Abigail (Interrupt and either prevent or redirect the last enhancement)
Denying Blame (Interrupt and redirect the last good enhancement)
Treachery of Jezebel (Interrupt and either prevent or redirect the last enhancement)

BfT is the only card to redirect numerical abilities.
Every card that redirects a special ability interrupts it first.

The REG says, "[Special a]bilities can only be redirected while they are interrupted." So you cannot use Treachery of Jezebel to redirect David's Music to your opponent's demons, or use Carelessness to redirect Martha to search for your own House in Bethany.

STAMP · « **Reply #17 on:** July 02, 2012, 05:39:44 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on July 01, 2012, 02:48:19 PM

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on July 01, 2012, 01:21:33 PM
How does this work? Does it steal the numbers of the EC to the enhancement and leave the EC with 0/0 numbers, killing it?

Benefiting from Troubles (Ap)

Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Blue • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Redirect abilities (*/*) of one Evil Character in battle back on the Evil Character(s) in battle. •

Yes. Because of the new ruling that */0 ECs are immediately discarded in battle, BfT is a battle winner.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

That would only happen for ECs that have strength numbers that are equal or greater than the toughness numbers.

megamanlan · « **Reply #18 on:** July 02, 2012, 06:56:30 PM »

Wait, wouldn't BfT take the Characters full stats?

Professoralstad · « **Reply #19 on:** July 02, 2012, 07:08:30 PM »

Quote from: STAMP on July 02, 2012, 05:39:44 PM

Quote from: Professoralstad on July 01, 2012, 02:48:19 PM
Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on July 01, 2012, 01:21:33 PM
How does this work? Does it steal the numbers of the EC to the enhancement and leave the EC with 0/0 numbers, killing it?

Benefiting from Troubles (Ap)

Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Blue • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Redirect abilities (*/*) of one Evil Character in battle back on the Evil Character(s) in battle. •

Yes. Because of the new ruling that */0 ECs are immediately discarded in battle, BfT is a battle winner.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

That would only happen for ECs that have strength numbers that are equal or greater than the toughness numbers.

I will admit that BfT is a unique card, but the way I've always seen it interpreted is that it takes the abilities of the EC and adds them to the hero. So Benjamin vs. High Priest Annas would go from 1/1 and 5/10 to 6/11 and 0/0. The REG quote TimMierz provided seems to support that view.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #20 on:** July 02, 2012, 11:31:10 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on July 02, 2012, 02:41:51 PM

@YMT, you're way overreacting. I think Benefitting from Troubles is the only card in the entire game that redirects abilities. For that matter, there are only like five that redirect anything period. You're also trying to apply the definition of redirecting abilities to redirecting special abilities, which is different.

You misunderstand my point. Chris was the one that stated that the difference would be inconsistent. I was providing an example that demonstrates they would have to be inconsistent. I agree that the rule for numbers is different, which was what I found unusual, since it had not previously been played that way, at least not in my experience. Redirect had always been treated "as if the card was played by the opponent," or in this case, "as if the numbers were part of the rescuer's total."

I have no problem with the ruling, since the REG is quite clear. I am just curious how many other reworded clarifications are int he REG that I have also not seen before. I don't think I was the only one who had never seen the REG quote about redirecting numbers.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #21 on:** July 03, 2012, 02:41:53 PM »

Quote

Redirect had always been treated "as if the card was played by the opponent," or in this case, "as if the numbers were part of the rescuer's total."

Wait, how isn't it now?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #22 on:** July 03, 2012, 02:49:28 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on July 03, 2012, 02:41:53 PM

Quote
Redirect had always been treated "as if the card was played by the opponent," or in this case, "as if the numbers were part of the rescuer's total."
Wait, how isn't it now?

There was never a reduce ability attached to it.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #23 on:** July 03, 2012, 02:55:37 PM »

There always was. It isn't until just now that it was formally articulated, but just as "Enhancements played by X CBN" has a "CBN" attached to it by its nature, so redirecting abilities has a reduce attached to it. It always functioned that way, the only thing that's different now is that it matters more.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #24 on:** April 24, 2015, 02:14:16 AM »

Bump.

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Author Topic: Benefiting from Troubles (Read 3717 times)

Chris

Chris

Chris

Warrior_Monk