Cactus Game Design Message Boards

If I have one Babylonian and Iron Pan out (works if a babylonian is in play and negates protect) will Bellshazzar's Banquet protect lost souls from rescue? Please give logic with your answer.

I would say yes.

Discard -----(Iron Pan deactivates)-----> Protect

I would venture to disagree and say no. Abilities can't be activated/played/used during the resolution of other abilities, so I would think the same would be the case for ongoing abilities turning off, i.e.: that they have to wait for all currently resolving abilities to finish. If this is true, then IP would still be active when the protect tries to fire and would negate it.

I don't know for sure, though. Just posting an alternate thought.

The more I think about it, I'm pretty sure that there is actually no precedent for this sort of thing. I was thinking Zebulun was, but I don't think a question about changes between abilities on the same card has come up before.

Given that it's two separate abilities, I would say yes.

ok my argument against browarod and for this working is simple chariot of fire and the hero losses acsess can they use chariot yes or no its exactly the same thing.

I do not think that this is at all the same.  Protect is being negated (prevented in this case) since a Bab is in play.  The EE comes in while the protection is still being prevented, the protection should not be active.  It cannot resolve (as pointed out) in the middle of the EE being played, and after the card is gone, that part of the ability was still prevented and was never active.

The Chariots scenario you presented is a very different animal.  See:

Rescue Attempt

A rescue attempt is the effort to recover a Lost Soul from the Land of Bondage by battle. A rescue attempt battle is initiated when a Hero is placed in the Field of Battle. The battle is considered a rescue attempt if a Hero has access to a Lost Soul at any point in the battle. A player is allowed one rescue attempt per turn unless a card states otherwise.

From the REG, emphasis mine.  Even if it BECOMES a battle challenge, it WAS a rescue attempt at one point, and by the rules and the REG, Chariots will resolve.

Here's my ruling on this for now (since this is an in-game question):

Iron Pan negates protection (which in this case is also preventing protection) at the start of the battle phase (assuming that the Babylonian was in territory already).  Then when the Babylonian plays Bel's Banquet the protection would be prevented, because Iron Pan is NOT going to update it's trigger in the middle of the enhancement's special ability.

If the babylonian blocked from hand (and there were no others in play) and was able to automatically play Bel's Banquet (ie. with Nebby) then Iron Pan's trigger would never check until the Babylonian was already discarded, and therefore would NOT prevent the LS protection.

So conditional abilities only check once per phase?

Quote from: SomeKittens on March 04, 2012, 11:26:29 PM

So conditional abilities only check once per phase?

I don't think so, but I don't think they can check in the middle of another ability.

 

For instance, I would think that cards like Iron Pan would check each time there was an initiative check during a battle.

So conditional abilities only check once per phase?

No. Conditional ongoing abilities are checked while they are ongoing. The issue here is that BB is negated when it is played. After it completes, Protect abilities are no longer negated, but BB doesn't become unnegated.

Hey,

It was established in a discussion about playing Son of God and New Jerusalem out of a 12 card hand with the "10 cards in hand" lost soul out that conditions are checked and updated dynamically, including while other abilities are being carried out.

In this case, Iron Pan prevents the protect ability on Belshazzar's Banquet as soon as it enters play, before the discard ability happens, because that's how prevent abilities work.  The discard then happens which shuts off the prevent from Iron Pan, but the protect has already been prevented at that point.

If there were no Babylonians in play and Nebuchadnezzar blocked from hand, it would turn the prevent from Iron Pan on immediately, even before Nebuchadnezzar's ability happens, so when he retrieves and plays Belshazzar's Banquet Iron Pan prevents the protect ability because Nebuchadnezzar is in play.  The discard then happens, the prevent is turned off but the damage is already done and the protect doesn't happen.

If Iron Pan said "If a Babylonian is in play, protect lost souls from all protect abilities," then Iron Pan's protect would turn off after the discard ability and before Belshazzar's Banquet's protect ability which would be just in time to allow Belshazzar's Banquet to protect the lost souls.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

I also doubt it. Either it's instantaneously dynamic or it's not.

SirNobody is correct.  There is a difference between "in play" and "in battle" dynamic triggers.  The dynamic trigger for "in play" occurs as soon as a card hits the in-play area of the table.  An "in battle" dynamic trigger occurs as soon as the SA completes on the character in battle.

What proof do you have of this? I've never heard of a difference in how triggers are treated.