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Hey,Quote from: YourMathTeacher on February 15, 2009, 10:15:01 PMQuote from: SirNobody on February 15, 2009, 10:03:26 PMYou can only play enhancements that are in your hand when you play Arrogance which significantly limits the one sided options, although I expect the concern over one-sided play would keep a card like Arrogance from being printed if it wasn't already printed.Not if you include cards like Dream (as mentioned earlier) that allow you to draw more cards.Quote from: Archangel withabunchofnumbersontheend on February 15, 2009, 10:17:26 PMQuote from: SirNobody on February 15, 2009, 10:03:26 PMYou can only play enhancements that are in your hand when you play ArroganceSay what?Abilities with multiple targets declare all targets before the effect is carried out on any of them.This is why I started out with the Babel analogy in the beginning. I play Babel I choose to band in Rabshakeh with Two Thousand Horses, Red Dragon, Goliath, and Emperor Nero. I bring them into battle and activate their abilities. If I draw an evil character with Two Thousand Horses can I choose to band that character into battle too? No. You're done declaring targets since you started bring in the characters and activating their abilities, you can't add any more targets.Arrogance is the same way. You choose (target) all of the enhancements you are going to play with the ability and then you put them into play and carry out their abilities. If the first enhancement you play with Arrogance's ability is Dream and you draw Great Image and Set Fire you can't decide to play them with Arrogance's ability too for the same reason you can't band the character in with Babel that you drew with Two Thousand Horses, when you draw the card, you're past the declaring targets part of the ability so it is too late to decide to target that card too. (Albeit Dream itself allows you to play an enhancement so you could play one of the cards you draw with Dream as part of Dream's ability. You can also play your chain of Dreams before you play Arrogance since they give you the "play next" ability.)Tschow,Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
Quote from: SirNobody on February 15, 2009, 10:03:26 PMYou can only play enhancements that are in your hand when you play Arrogance which significantly limits the one sided options, although I expect the concern over one-sided play would keep a card like Arrogance from being printed if it wasn't already printed.Not if you include cards like Dream (as mentioned earlier) that allow you to draw more cards.
You can only play enhancements that are in your hand when you play Arrogance which significantly limits the one sided options, although I expect the concern over one-sided play would keep a card like Arrogance from being printed if it wasn't already printed.
Quote from: SirNobody on February 15, 2009, 10:03:26 PMYou can only play enhancements that are in your hand when you play ArroganceSay what?
You can only play enhancements that are in your hand when you play Arrogance
Quote from: Bryon on March 07, 2010, 08:00:26 PMThe outcome should still be the same, right?...The fact that some players count 3 cards off the top of their deck and then look at them simultaneously seems like it wouldn't matter, since the entire draw action has to be completed before any responses can happen.No.Quote from: YourMathTeacher on March 07, 2010, 01:40:05 PMHypothetically, what if there was a Lost Soul card that started, "If there is no other Lost Soul in play...?" If you drew all three cards first and you had two Lost Soul cards, one of which was this Lost Soul, couldn't you then decide which one to put down first (depending on whether you wanted the trigger to activate)? On the other hand, if cards are drawn one at a time, if the other Lost Soul was drawn first, it would have to be put down first, thus not triggering this one. That's a big difference IMO.
The outcome should still be the same, right?...The fact that some players count 3 cards off the top of their deck and then look at them simultaneously seems like it wouldn't matter, since the entire draw action has to be completed before any responses can happen.
Hypothetically, what if there was a Lost Soul card that started, "If there is no other Lost Soul in play...?" If you drew all three cards first and you had two Lost Soul cards, one of which was this Lost Soul, couldn't you then decide which one to put down first (depending on whether you wanted the trigger to activate)? On the other hand, if cards are drawn one at a time, if the other Lost Soul was drawn first, it would have to be put down first, thus not triggering this one. That's a big difference IMO.
Balance has multiple targets, why are they not all targeted instantly before any discards happen?
Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on March 07, 2010, 08:08:54 PMBalance has multiple targets, why are they not all targeted instantly before any discards happen?Because Rob said so. "Until" has checks. End it.
...(and to avoid getting my words picked apart, apparently).
It was not a perfect comparison, obviously. I have not turned anything into anything. A better comparison is drawing a replacement card for a lost soul.
So it doesn't matter, unless we want to argue? I'll pass.
Because Rob said so. "Until" has checks. End it.
I know you guys are trying to nail some logic down right now, but I just needed to add something. Are these all equal in how they are performed now?Discard xDiscard up to xDiscard until x
Quote from: STAMP on March 07, 2010, 08:36:14 PMI know you guys are trying to nail some logic down right now, but I just needed to add something. Are these all equal in how they are performed now?Discard xDiscard up to xDiscard until xThe only thing I can tell you for certain is that there is one key difference between "up to" and the others, in that you can select any number you choose between 0 and X, whereas the others must be carried out in full.
Quote from: Bryon on March 07, 2010, 08:11:06 PMQuote from: Lamborghini_diablo on March 07, 2010, 08:08:54 PMBalance has multiple targets, why are they not all targeted instantly before any discards happen?Because Rob said so. "Until" has checks. End it.End it?
"If two or more Heroes are in battle and if there are more evil cards in play than good cards, discard X evil cards." (X = # of evil cards minus # of good cards).
If two or more Heroes are in battle and if there are more evil cards in play than good cards, discard evil cards from play until the number of evil cards is less than or equal to the number of good cards.If we went with Bryon's option, if X = 3 then a player could discard an EC holding a weapon, an EC with a placed card (Herod's Treachery for ex.) and Kingdoms of the World (potentially holding 3 ECs) and thereby discard a total of 8 evil cards. 3 of them were discarded by Balance and 5 of them were discarded by game rule.
Quote from: Bryon on March 05, 2010, 12:14:40 AMYes, your play as addresses it nicely, and actually is closer to the original wording than my suggestion. So, I vote for your suggestion. Me too.
I do think we should try and reach a more solid conclusion, because there is still confusion and some stuff is contradicting other rulings.
Just consider "draw until H = 6" or "discard evil cards until E = G" to be treated as one action that continually checks, just as any draw action has a built in check for Lost Soul cards."Until" is the operative word. If a card tells you to do an action "until" some condition is met, then cards are targeted one at a time. Otherwise, effects with multiple targets target once.
Schaef, I do appreciate that you want the rule cleaned up nicely, but rather than picking apart my words, feel free to put 2 and 2 together for yourself and actually be helpful in clearing up the rule as Rob wants it.
Soooo, if Rob approves the until = check rule, can we revisit Arrogance and apply the same type of rule to that? That ruling got based on the only rule multiple targets have. If there is more than one way to target multiple cards, then we should find any cards that might be impacted by this.
