Author Topic: Balance questions (Read 16567 times)

Bryon · « **Reply #100 on:** March 07, 2010, 12:44:27 AM »

There is a card in the next set which currently has this as part of its ability:

"Each opponent with fewer than 6 cards in hand may draw until he has 6."

This is the exact same type of ability. There is only one draw ability, and it acts like this:

If you don't have 6, draw 1, check, draw 1, check, draw 1, check, etc. until you have 6.

Balance is the same way: discard 1, check, discard 1, check, discard 1, check, etc. until E cards is < or = G cards.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #101 on:** March 07, 2010, 12:55:52 AM »

So, would an ability like that constantly trigger Abom, since the drawing is not done all at once?

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #102 on:** March 07, 2010, 01:31:42 AM »

You only draw cards one time, but the mechanism by which you draw them is partitioned. At least, that's how I read it. If not, and the Special Ability he's talking about is on the same character (or at least Brigade) that I put it in...wow. I don't think the PTB would make a card that powerful.

Bryon · « **Reply #103 on:** March 07, 2010, 10:36:07 AM »

Right. It is one draw action. Rather than the usual count, you get a cap.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #104 on:** March 07, 2010, 10:43:20 AM »

So an ability like that would or would not allow me to use Abom multiple times?

The Schaef · « **Reply #105 on:** March 07, 2010, 11:00:40 AM »

Quote from: Bryon on March 07, 2010, 10:36:07 AM

Right. It is one draw action. Rather than the usual count, you get a cap.

That's not how you portrayed it, though.

Quote

draw 1, check, draw 1, check, draw 1, check, etc. until you have 6.

Bryon · « **Reply #106 on:** March 07, 2010, 11:18:32 AM »

I can see how that would be misunderstood. Let me calrify:

When I use a card that says draw 3, I draw 1, draw 1, draw 1. I pick up three cards individually, replacing lost souls that I draw with yet another draw 1. That does not make it three separate draw abilities or three separate game actions.

It is the same thing here: draw 1, check, draw 1, check, etc.

Just as drawing a replacement for a Lost Soul does not count as a separate draw action, neither does drawing after checking a hand count.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #107 on:** March 07, 2010, 11:20:31 AM »

Or when I draw three, I could pick up three at the same time. I would not be allowed to do that with the other card.

The Schaef · « **Reply #108 on:** March 07, 2010, 11:32:35 AM »

Quote from: Bryon on March 07, 2010, 11:18:32 AM

When I use a card that says draw 3, I draw 1, draw 1, draw 1.

I'm not sure anybody else understands abilities to read as "select one target and apply the effect one time, over and over until a certain condition is met". This is the first time I have ever heard that logic used to explain "draw three".

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #109 on:** March 07, 2010, 01:40:05 PM »

I thought all "draw card" abilities were one at a time. You're not supposed to draw three cards all at once, are you? Hypothetically, what if there was a Lost Soul card that started, "If there is no other Lost Soul in play...?" If you drew all three cards first and you had two Lost Soul cards, one of which was this Lost Soul, couldn't you then decide which one to put down first (depending on whether you wanted the trigger to activate)? On the other hand, if cards are drawn one at a time, if the other Lost Soul was drawn first, it would have to be put down first, thus not triggering this one. That's a big difference IMO.

The Schaef · « **Reply #110 on:** March 07, 2010, 01:49:26 PM »

Do you also get to discard a group of cards (for example, "all Heroes") one at a time, and by discarding one that might have a protection on it, allow you to target other cards after that in the same group, even though they were previously protected? That also is a big difference.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #111 on:** March 07, 2010, 01:53:20 PM »

I don't see "draw" and "discard" as having to follow the same rules. If we are seriously going to lump the Draw Phase into the idea of "targetting" cards in my deck then I have nothing more to say that won't sound abusive.

The Schaef · « **Reply #112 on:** March 07, 2010, 02:00:18 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on March 07, 2010, 01:53:20 PM

I don't see "draw" and "discard" as having to follow the same rules.

This is a ruling on Balance, a card that discards cards from a territory. The other example card was a "draw until" that was used to draw parallels with "discard until".

If you don't see the two abilities as following the same rules, then I am not the one with whom you disagree. Well, it's half and half really, just that your disagreement with which rule is to be applied consistently doesn't lie within my logic.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #113 on:** March 07, 2010, 02:31:21 PM »

Right now I just want to know if players at my tournament tomorrow are supposed to draw one card at a time or all three at once? With kids, drawing all at once tends to be a problem since they grab too many and then see their next card or two. Drawing one at a time is safer and would alleviate other ruling considerations.

The Schaef · « **Reply #114 on:** March 07, 2010, 03:05:43 PM »

Drawing three does not require you to grab a group of three all at once.

Obviously there are still some issues here to resolve about the logistical nature of how many cards are drawn at a time, or how many of anything is done at a time, for the purposes of sorting out these special abilities.

But in terms of the physical act of taking the card from the deck and putting it into hand, I don't see any reason you couldn't tell them to draw in any way you think is best (e.g. one card at a time) without it having any effect on gameplay.

If the rule is draw 1, draw 1, draw 1, they could still take a group of three as long as they put the souls down in the same order they were drawn. And if the rule is draw a group of three, they could still draw one at a time and then put down the souls in any order they want. That is only a semantic discussion. For practical purposes, it can be entirely at your discretion.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #115 on:** March 07, 2010, 04:00:35 PM »

Regardless of this whole drawing discussion, I still have never seen a card that selects its targets one by one.

If this were possible, I would say we should revisit the arrogance ruling, because there it was said that targets are always decided instantaneously.

Bryon · « **Reply #116 on:** March 07, 2010, 04:55:10 PM »

I play Reach. I draw 3 (one at a time or 3 at once). One is a lost soul. I put it down. I draw another card.

Is the "draw a replacement" a separate draw action, or all the same draw action? It is all the same draw action, even though it had a "put the lost soul in play" in the middle of it.

It is the same with Balance and the 2010 card: It is all one action, even though it has a "check" in the middle of it.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #117 on:** March 07, 2010, 05:00:10 PM »

How should the hypothetical Lost Soul situation that I presented be resolved then? If I choose to draw all three cards at once, would I get to choose which Lost Soul to put down first? If so, and that would be a different outcome than drawing one at a time, is that just an "Oh well?"

The Schaef · « **Reply #118 on:** March 07, 2010, 05:04:33 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on March 07, 2010, 04:55:10 PM

Is the "draw a replacement" a separate draw action, or all the same draw action? It is all the same draw action, even though it had a "put the lost soul in play" in the middle of it.

So a game rule and a special ability are the same action to you?

And does this mean that other abilities with multiple targets have these same checks, allowing me to discard previously-protected cards by discarding them in a certain order?

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #119 on:** March 07, 2010, 05:17:28 PM »

Or, can I use arrogance, play Dream, draw three cards, and then use arrogance to play all three of those cards? It was ruled I could not, due to arrogance targeting all the enhancements it would play instantly, rather than continuously.

Bryon · « **Reply #120 on:** March 07, 2010, 07:49:50 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on March 07, 2010, 05:04:33 PM

Quote from: Bryon on March 07, 2010, 04:55:10 PM
Is the "draw a replacement" a separate draw action, or all the same draw action? It is all the same draw action, even though it had a "put the lost soul in play" in the middle of it.

So a game rule and a special ability are the same action to you?

According to the rule for Abomination of Desolation, yes. Otherwise, A-bom is alot better than I thought.

Quote from: The Schaef on March 07, 2010, 05:04:33 PM

And does this mean that other abilities with multiple targets have these same checks, allowing me to discard previously-protected cards by discarding them in a certain order?

Only if those "other abilities with multiple discards" also say "until somethingorother is true." A "discard until X = Y" effect has multiple checks. A "discard X cards" effect has no checks. That's kinda the point of "until."

The Schaef · « **Reply #121 on:** March 07, 2010, 07:57:50 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on March 07, 2010, 07:49:50 PM

According to the rule for Abomination of Desolation, yes. Otherwise, A-bom is alot better than I thought.

So why are these treated as the same action here but separate actions everywhere else?

Quote from: The Schaef on March 07, 2010, 05:04:33 PM

A "discard until X = Y" effect has multiple checks. A "discard X cards" effect has no checks. That's kinda the point of "until."

No, you specifically said that these cards were treated the same. Applying the Lost Soul rule to each individual card drawn means every card draw - even a single - is followed by a check. So you are doing "draw one" action "x" times, with a Lost Soul "check", "until" you have reached a total of three cards drawn. You are "discarding one Hero" "x" times "until" all have been discarded.

By defining "until" and comparing it to cards that draw a set amount, you have turned every card into an "until". You just are picking and choosing which "checks" to use and which ones to ignore, and which ones are part of the same action, and which ones are not.

Bryon · « **Reply #122 on:** March 07, 2010, 08:00:26 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on March 07, 2010, 05:00:10 PM

How should the hypothetical Lost Soul situation that I presented be resolved then? If I choose to draw all three cards at once, would I get to choose which Lost Soul to put down first? If so, and that would be a different outcome than drawing one at a time, is that just an "Oh well?"

The outcome should still be the same, right? I always figured players drew cards one at a time, put lost souls down as they drew them, and continued to draw until they had drawn 3. The fact that some players count 3 cards off the top of their deck and then look at them simultaneously seems like it wouldn't matter, since the entire draw action has to be completed before any responses can happen.

The point is, the "check and draw replacement for lost souls" part of a draw action is like the "check for E = G" that happens as a part of Balance, and "check for H = 6" that happens for the top secret 2010 enhancement.

The Schaef · « **Reply #123 on:** March 07, 2010, 08:02:54 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on March 07, 2010, 08:00:26 PM

The outcome should still be the same, right?...The fact that some players count 3 cards off the top of their deck and then look at them simultaneously seems like it wouldn't matter, since the entire draw action has to be completed before any responses can happen.

No.

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on March 07, 2010, 01:40:05 PM

Hypothetically, what if there was a Lost Soul card that started, "If there is no other Lost Soul in play...?" If you drew all three cards first and you had two Lost Soul cards, one of which was this Lost Soul, couldn't you then decide which one to put down first (depending on whether you wanted the trigger to activate)? On the other hand, if cards are drawn one at a time, if the other Lost Soul was drawn first, it would have to be put down first, thus not triggering this one. That's a big difference IMO.

Bryon · « **Reply #124 on:** March 07, 2010, 08:07:35 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on March 07, 2010, 07:57:50 PM

treated the same

I am sorry for that poor choice of words. I did not mean that they WERE the same, I was trying to point out a similarity. I need to be more careful what I say, so that I don't confuse people (and to avoid getting my words picked apart, apparently).

Quote from: The Schaef on March 07, 2010, 07:57:50 PM

By defining "until" and comparing it to cards that draw a set amount, you have turned every card into an "until".

It was not a perfect comparison, obviously. I have not turned anything into anything. A better comparison is drawing a replacement card for a lost soul.

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Author Topic: Balance questions (Read 16567 times)

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