Author Topic: Balance questions (Read 16358 times)

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #50 on:** February 26, 2010, 09:10:22 AM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on February 26, 2010, 02:35:15 AM

If the trigger is only evaluated once, then given the wording on the card (barring an errata) once the number of evil cards is less than the number of good cards, you will keep discarding evil as long as there is an evil card that can be discarded.

Wha?

The Schaef · « **Reply #51 on:** February 26, 2010, 09:18:58 AM »

He's suggesting that because the number of cards is never truly equal, you just keep discarding forever.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #52 on:** February 26, 2010, 10:16:30 AM »

Right.

Let's say you discard KotW or something that makes it so you would end up with 5 evil cards in play and 6 good cards. Balance states "discard evil cards from play until the number of evil cards equals the number of good cards." Is 5 equal to 6? No it is not, so given the SA as written I have to discard an evil card. Now I have 4 evil cards. Rinse and repeat.

If you treat the "until" as dynamic the only way to avoid this problem is to re-evaluate the trigger on each discard. If "until" implies instantaneous targeting, as you suggest, this problem does not arise.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #53 on:** February 26, 2010, 10:21:26 AM »

Ahh, I see what you mean now. It would basicly skip the point of equality, but not realize it.

Even more reason to just make it completely instant.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #54 on:** February 26, 2010, 10:44:03 AM »

Quote

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on Today at 02:00:48 AM
Okay so if the argument is # d/c'd evil cards, vs # targetted, what happens with a loaded dorkness? Two evil cards WILL hit the d/c pile and one of them wasn't included in the check....
It would be standard Redemption targeting. You would only target The Darkness as one of the cards you are discarding with Balance. The face down evil card goes along for the ride, by game rule, even though it wasn't targeted. Any good player would do that all the time.

Precisely. If its the # of evil cards d/c'd being counted and they are being counted 1 at a time dorkness would waste 2 evil kills rather than the 1 it should (since the ec was OOP)

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #55 on:** February 26, 2010, 10:58:43 AM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on February 26, 2010, 10:21:26 AM

Even more reason to just make it completely instant.

I agree. I would have made that argument initially, if I had trusted my understanding of when/how triggers get evaluated.

STAMP · « **Reply #56 on:** February 26, 2010, 11:23:28 AM »

Considering all of the in-game scenarios mentioned I really think we'll hardly ever see Balance bring balance to the table when it is played. Unfortunate. $:-\$

browarod · « **Reply #57 on:** February 27, 2010, 07:37:03 AM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on February 26, 2010, 02:15:34 AM

Also, another fun situation.... what happens if you discard a raiders camp full of heroes? According to how I see this, you'd still discard X, with X being based on the good/evil ratio BEFORE you started to discard.

Do heroes (or EC's) in RC even count for Balance? I thought they were treated as "captured characters" and, like Lost Souls, are neutral. Do they retain their "good" or "evil" status after being captured? If so, I should be able to discard a captured hero from my Raider's Camp when an opponent uses an effect that makes me discard a good card from territory. That doesn't seem right to me, though many current rulings don't

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #58 on:** February 27, 2010, 08:49:43 AM »

I Am Redemption: "Return your captured Heroes to your territory. Cannot be negated by an evil card."

Just based on that card, I'd say captured heroes in RC are considered good cards. Also, people in RC/ Demonic Stronghold arent treated like Lost Souls either.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #59 on:** February 27, 2010, 09:23:29 AM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on February 27, 2010, 08:49:43 AM

I Am Redemption: "Return your captured Heroes to your territory. Cannot be negated by an evil card."

Just based on that card, I'd say captured heroes in RC are considered good cards. Also, people in RC/ Demonic Stronghold arent treated like Lost Souls either.

What about that phrase makes you think they are good? Captured characters in land of bondage are certainly not good, and I am Redemption still targets them. I would assume that captured Heroes and EC's are neutral no matter where they are.

frisian9 · « **Reply #60 on:** February 28, 2010, 05:24:20 PM »

Captured cards retain their identifiers, and brigade is an identifier. That means we know what is evil and what is good.

Mike

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #61 on:** February 28, 2010, 05:35:10 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on February 27, 2010, 09:23:29 AM

What about that phrase makes you think they are good?

Perhaps the word "heroes?"

Quote from: STAMP on February 26, 2010, 11:23:28 AM

Considering all of the in-game scenarios mentioned I really think we'll hardly ever see Balance bring balance to the table when it is played. Unfortunate. $:-\$

STAMP is correct.

Too bad Redemption is not like Star Wars. Anakin was supposed to bring balance and he did - two Jedi and two Sith.

The Schaef · « **Reply #62 on:** February 28, 2010, 05:44:32 PM »

Well, ultimately, what he brought was one Jedi and no Sith.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #63 on:** February 28, 2010, 05:49:49 PM »

But he balanced the last sith over his head. At that point, Anakin was neutral (or both).

The Schaef · « **Reply #64 on:** February 28, 2010, 06:18:11 PM »

Tough to balance someone over one's head with one hand and one mechanical stump.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #65 on:** February 28, 2010, 07:06:31 PM »

That's why he was the Chosen One.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #66 on:** February 28, 2010, 09:17:26 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on February 28, 2010, 05:35:10 PM

Quote from: Professoralstad on February 27, 2010, 09:23:29 AM
What about that phrase makes you think they are good?

Perhaps the word "heroes?"

Well, a captured hero in my land of bondage is also returned via IaR...but since it is treated as a Lost Soul, I assumed it was neutral. Are we really saying that I could use the discarder lost soul to discard a captured EC and make you discard a good card?

Quote from: frisian9 on February 28, 2010, 05:24:20 PM

Captured cards retain their identifiers, and brigade is an identifier. That means we know what is evil and what is good.

Mike

Also, I thought this myth was dispelled when someone tried to use Arioch to discard a male, human (both identifiers) from territory that happened to be a captured character to put an LS under deck. If this has changed, then Arioch may have just replaced Nebuchadnezzar as "the best EC in the game".

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #67 on:** February 28, 2010, 09:31:31 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on February 28, 2010, 09:17:26 PM

Quote from: frisian9 on February 28, 2010, 05:24:20 PM
Captured cards retain their identifiers, and brigade is an identifier. That means we know what is evil and what is good.

Mike

Also, I thought this myth was dispelled when someone tried to use Arioch to discard a male, human (both identifiers) from territory that happened to be a captured character to put an LS under deck.

Actually this claim was reinforced when Arioch looked around and was prevented from doing anything at all because the other guy had a captured prophet (an identifier) sitting in his land of bondage.

It's not the identifiers that were the issue in the Arioch case. Bryon made a distinction between targeting a card in the LoB and noticing a card in the LoB, and claimed this was important. (To this day I see nothing but inconsistency in ruling the two differently.) Anywhoo... the ruling most definitely did not deal with identifiers somehow being lost on capture.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #68 on:** February 28, 2010, 09:36:55 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on February 28, 2010, 09:31:31 PM

Actually this claim was reinforced when Arioch looked around and was prevented from doing anything at all because the other guy had a captured prophet (an identifier) sitting in his land of bondage.

It's not the identifiers that were the issue in the Arioch case. Bryon made a distinction between targeting a card in the LoB and noticing a card in the LoB, and claimed this was important. (To this day see nothing but inconsistency in ruling the two differently.) Anywhoo... the ruling most definitely did not deal with identifiers somehow being lost on capture.

Oh. Well that's silly.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #69 on:** February 28, 2010, 09:37:06 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on February 28, 2010, 05:44:32 PM

Well, ultimately, what he brought was one Jedi and no Sith.

More like one wanna be Jedi. You can't force choke a guard and be lightside.

Red · « **Reply #70 on:** February 28, 2010, 09:39:12 PM »

read the leagacy of the jedi series there will be alot of dark momets like luke almost killing his nephew.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #71 on:** February 28, 2010, 09:47:26 PM »

Quote from: RED on February 28, 2010, 09:39:12 PM

read the leagacy of the jedi series there will be alot of dark momets like luke almost killing his nephew.

Yeah but I'm talking strictly movies.

Red · « **Reply #72 on:** February 28, 2010, 09:50:58 PM »

ok. note anakin turned to the dark

The Schaef · « **Reply #73 on:** February 28, 2010, 10:04:05 PM »

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on February 28, 2010, 09:37:06 PM

More like one wanna be Jedi. You can't force choke a guard and be lightside.

Pig-guards don't count.

Besides, how many bug-guards did Anakin carve up in Episode II and was still considered lightside?

And Yoda and Obi-Wan were taking down clone troopers who are "programmed" to follow orders, and whom they were commanding just days before.

Basically, if you're standing in a Jedi's way and you don't have a name in the credits, you're expendable. But choke or lightsaber another Jedi, or Known Bad Guy(tm) and you have the Emperor cackling.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #74 on:** February 28, 2010, 10:08:23 PM »

This thread recommended for lockage.

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Author Topic: Balance questions (Read 16358 times)

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef

Lamborghini_diablo

browarod

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef

The Schaef

The Schaef