Author Topic: Balance questions (Read 16518 times)

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #25 on:** February 24, 2010, 11:05:29 AM »

Even so I think its good playing, you do balances s.a. to the best you can. If the majority of ecs are protected, then there will still be more evil cards, where as if you snipe KOTW there will be less.

STAMP · « **Reply #26 on:** February 24, 2010, 11:14:35 AM »

I really think there should have been a "regardless" in this SA. $:-\$

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #27 on:** February 24, 2010, 03:50:32 PM »

either that or rewrite it as I suggested earlier, where you just instantly target X cards, and boom. None of this "discard until..." stuff.

Just count up the good cards, count up the evil cards, subtract the two to find X, and off you go. Thats how I see it being played. Doesn't matter how many go in the discard pile, you just target X.

The Schaef · « **Reply #28 on:** February 24, 2010, 04:11:59 PM »

I don't see what is the difference. If there is an EC and a Kingdoms holding three, the total is five. If there are three good cards in play, I can target two. Target the EC, target Kingdoms. Exact same result.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #29 on:** February 24, 2010, 04:41:18 PM »

Thats how I see it too, but the "until" causes some people to interpret it differently.

The Schaef · « **Reply #30 on:** February 24, 2010, 04:48:16 PM »

How? If you select them all together or individually, it's the exact same. All the discards happen together anyway, and you can't do anything else or trigger anything else until Balance is completed, which is until you hit the balance.

So what's the other interpretation?

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #31 on:** February 24, 2010, 04:54:50 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on February 24, 2010, 04:48:16 PM

How? If you select them all together or individually, it's the exact same. All the discards happen together anyway, and you can't do anything else or trigger anything else until Balance is completed, which is until you hit the balance.

So what's the other interpretation?

Mike seems to think you're limited by the number of cards that hit the discard pile, rather than how many you simply target.

Quote from: frisian9 on February 23, 2010, 10:47:47 AM

Regarding (A), you discard until the condition is satisfied or you no longer have any to discard (i.e., some may be protected). You cannot discard more. Your count is by the number hitting the discard pile (the number actually discarded), not cards you directly targeted. For example, in the event cards may be "placed", if you discard the base card, you would discard the placed card with it (by game rule) and count it as two.

Quote from: frisian9 on February 24, 2010, 09:58:25 AM

I'm not so sure that would be the proper action. If you CAN discard one in the fortress and avoid going over the prescribed number, I believe you SHOULD. Going over is not your only option and is not allowed by the special ability restriction. If you can find a way to meet the restriction, shouldn't that be the proper action?

Mike

The Schaef · « **Reply #32 on:** February 24, 2010, 04:58:30 PM »

He is also opining that you can target protected cards, something I don't buy. He is not arguing that "until" means something different, only that a discard that takes you over the limit should not be allowed. That would be the same whether you select your targets all at once or one at a time.

I get what he's saying about if the count was seven to three and I discarded Kingdoms plus its contents, that would bring it down to three. But you have to select from among valid targets, so I don't see any way around allowing the bigger discard.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #33 on:** February 24, 2010, 05:02:13 PM »

I'm under the impression that its the "until" that helped him form that opinion. Im not speaking for him, but it seems that way.

Still, it wouldn't hurt to give it a play as that says "discard X" would it? Only reason I'm suggesting it is because I know the current SA was confusing to me at one point as well.

frisian9 · « **Reply #34 on:** February 25, 2010, 09:49:52 AM »

Using my argument of counting cards being discarded, you would have to stop short of the total prescribed, i.e., number discarded <= number allowed (never >).

It seems to be an interpretation problem. I think Schaef is saying the count is number of evil cards targeted for discard (counting before the discard), and I am saying that it could also be the number of evil cards discarded (after the discard). I think it is valid either way and ambiguous in the card special ability. If so, we simply need to decide which way to go and insert a "play as". Agree?

Mike

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #35 on:** February 25, 2010, 05:26:37 PM »

I agree it needs a play as to avoid this confusion, but I disagree that it should limit the number of discards.

The Schaef · « **Reply #36 on:** February 25, 2010, 05:29:01 PM »

I'm just not sure you can separate the targeting aspect from the discarding aspect. That's the big problem I see with counting protected cards among the discarded.

STAMP · « **Reply #37 on:** February 25, 2010, 05:32:26 PM »

Well, the card is named, "Balance", and it does state, "...until the number of evil cards equals the number of good cards." I would vote for an errata that includes a "Regardless of protection,...". But that's just me.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #38 on:** February 25, 2010, 05:46:37 PM »

So, I still don't see why giving it the play as that states the following wouldn't work.

"If two or more Heroes are in battle and if there are more evil cards in play than good cards, discard X evil cards. X = Number of evil cards in play minus the number of good cards in play."

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #39 on:** February 25, 2010, 08:47:32 PM »

Since I am in my "learn more about triggered abilities" phase, can someone tell me whether the "If two or more Heroes are in battle and if there are more evil cards in play than good cards" trigger is evaluated once at the start of the SA or continually as the discarding takes effect. I think it's the latter, but on the other hand once the trigger is tripped wouldn't the then clause have to continue until it's portion of the SA completes?

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #40 on:** February 25, 2010, 09:01:14 PM »

Heres how I see the entire card, done more like TI BASIC program code:

Balance()

If (# of number of heroes)>2 and (# of number of evil cards)>(# of number of good cards) <---- Instant one-time check.

Then

Target (# of evil cards - # of good cards) evil cards for discard. <---- Instant targeting.

EndIf

EndBalance()

BASICly, it says "Ok, are there two heroes in battle? Yep. Are there more evil cards in play than good cards? Yep. Now I target X evil cards to be discarded!"

mjwolfe · « **Reply #41 on:** February 26, 2010, 01:37:55 AM »

You might like to re-write the card, but using your Basic language, I would say that the special ability should be done the way it is written on the card:

Balance()
   If (# of heroes in battle)>2 and (# of evil cards in play)>(#of good cards in play) <---- Instant one-time check.
   Then
   Do Until ( # of evil cards in play <= # of good cards in play And discardable evil cards in play exist )
   Discard( 1 evil card in play that is discardable )
   End Do
   EndIf
End Balance()

The do until statement needs to be written that way to avoid an infinite loop and avoid discarding evil cards if the # of evil gets less than the number of good due to game rules.

It's certainly not broke. There's no good reason that it should discard cards that are protected from discard. And there's no good reason that cards that were placed on a card that is discarded shouldn't be discarded the way they always are. Because of the "until", I would say that you can keep selecting a card to discard in any order you choose until balance is reached and if a game rule then causes some other cards to be discarded as well, that's just the way Redemption works. Any enhancement in Redemption that discards cards can effectively discard more than it targeted because of game rules that cause others to also be discarded.

Mike

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #42 on:** February 26, 2010, 01:56:32 AM »

See, herein lies the problem.

That is how I tried to play Arrogance. However, it was ruled that arrogance targets all of enhancements you wish to play at one time, rather than being a "continuous" ability. This means that you cant play Dream during arrogance, and THEN play a card you just drew with dream (ignoring the play next on Dream), because that card was not part of the original targeting.

Why is Balance different? How come it gets to use "one at a time" targeting, rather than "all at once" targeting?

Cards that target multiple cards almost always decide ALL of their targets at once.

*EDIT*

I agree with the fact that its not allowed to target protected cards, but it would be allowed to target KotW and bring three EC's along as collateral damage. (I see that as ONE discard for Balance btw)

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #43 on:** February 26, 2010, 02:00:48 AM »

Okay so if the argument is # d/c'd evil cards, vs # targetted, what happens with a loaded dorkness? Two evil cards WILL hit the d/c pile and one of them wasn't included in the check....

mjwolfe · « **Reply #44 on:** February 26, 2010, 02:06:22 AM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on February 26, 2010, 01:56:32 AM

Why is Balance different? How come it gets to use "one at a time" targeting, rather than "all at once" targeting?

I would suggest that it is because of the word until that implies the test and the discard are done over and over until... If all the cards were targeted at once, there would have been no need for the word until. (By the way, I'm on your side in the Arrogance question. I think the Arrogance sa specifies a number of enhancements you may play not targeting specific enhancements that are in play (the number is any number that you desire, like 100. You are then allowed to do as much as you can -- maybe ony four, but including one that you drew with Dream)).

Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on February 26, 2010, 02:00:48 AM

Okay so if the argument is # d/c'd evil cards, vs # targetted, what happens with a loaded dorkness? Two evil cards WILL hit the d/c pile and one of them wasn't included in the check....

It would be standard Redemption targeting. You would only target The Darkness as one of the cards you are discarding with Balance. The face down evil card goes along for the ride, by game rule, even though it wasn't targeted. Any good player would do that all the time.

Mike

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #45 on:** February 26, 2010, 02:15:34 AM »

This is exactly what I was talking about earlier when I wanted to take "until" out of the SA... because its a rather vauge term that can easily be interpreted two totally different ways. The idea of an instant ability (discarding) being more of a "continuous" ability does seem to go against the nature of instant abilities.

Also, another fun situation.... what happens if you discard a raiders camp full of heroes? According to how I see this, you'd still discard X, with X being based on the good/evil ratio BEFORE you started to discard.

mjwolfe · « **Reply #46 on:** February 26, 2010, 02:24:04 AM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on February 26, 2010, 02:15:34 AM

This is exactly what I was talking about earlier when I wanted to take "until" out of the SA... because its a rather vauge term that can easily be interpreted two totally different ways. The idea of an instant ability (discarding) being more of a "continuous" ability does seem to go against the nature of instant abilities.

Also, another fun situation.... what happens if you discard a raiders camp full of heroes? According to how I see this, you'd still discard X, with X being based on the good/evil ratio BEFORE you started to discard.

Just because the individual discards might be instant abilities doesn't mean the whole sa should be instant to make it easy. It's a very nice dynamic card, let it stay that way.

As for Raider's Camp, again a very smart move would be to discard it last. Discarding the heroes with it by game rule takes you out of balance and let's you discard more evil cards. Nice move. I love stuff like this.

Mike

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #47 on:** February 26, 2010, 02:29:56 AM »

Im not saying it wouldnt be fun as a dynamic card, I just try to make sure stuff is consistant with the other rules. It seems to be sort of an oddball only because it says "until."

I cant think of any other instant abilities with multiple targets that work on a one-by-one basis.

Besides, the card is still a blast to use regardless of which way this ruling goes.

I even have a combo offense based on it.

The Schaef · « **Reply #48 on:** February 26, 2010, 02:34:50 AM »

Quote

This is exactly what I was talking about earlier when I wanted to take "until" out of the SA... because its a rather vauge term that can easily be interpreted two totally different ways.

It could be but you highlighted the exact problem in your response to Mike. Whenever multiple cards are targeted, the effect hits them all at once. Arrogance plays its cards all at once, not one at a time. You choose the order of activating abilities on a group of banded Heroes, but they are all banded in as a group, not one at a time.

The precedent has been set, and IMO it was on abilities that make much better arguments for ungrouped targeting. Also, in the past we have made new rulings and reversed old rulings that have given the priority to consistent play among cards, over parsing abilities to death and trying to keep everything intact. Helmet of Salvation springs to mind, and Split Altar is a very recent example.

"Until" has no special meaning in Redemption, and I hesitate to assign any to it just for the sake of one card. Just my opinion, though.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #49 on:** February 26, 2010, 02:35:15 AM »

Quote from: mjwolfe on February 26, 2010, 01:37:55 AM

You might like to re-write the card, but using your Basic language, I would say that the special ability should be done the way it is written on the card:

Balance()
   If (# of heroes in battle)>2 and (# of evil cards in play)>(#of good cards in play) <---- Instant one-time check.
   Then
   Do Until ( # of evil cards in play <= # of good cards in play And discardable evil cards in play exist )
   Discard( 1 evil card in play that is discardable )
   End Do
   EndIf
End Balance()

The do until statement needs to be written that way to avoid an infinite loop and avoid discarding evil cards if the # of evil gets less than the number of good due to game rules.

Except (as you note by your avoid condition) that is not what is written on the card. The only part of the SA that prevents discarding evil cards when # evil < # good is the trigger. The card explicitly states that the until should be

Do Until (# of evil cards in play == # of good cards in play)

This comes back to my question about the trigger. If the trigger is only evaluated once, then given the wording on the card (barring an errata) once the number of evil cards is less than the number of good cards, you will keep discarding evil as long as there is an evil card that can be discarded. If, on the other hand, the trigger is continually evaluated, then this issue is moot.

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Author Topic: Balance questions (Read 16518 times)

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef