Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Even so I think its good playing, you do balances s.a. to the best you can. If the majority of ecs are protected, then there will still be more evil cards, where as if you snipe KOTW there will be less.

either that or rewrite it as I suggested earlier, where you just instantly target X cards, and boom. None of this "discard until..." stuff.

Just count up the good cards, count up the evil cards, subtract the two to find X, and off you go. Thats how I see it being played. Doesn't matter how many go in the discard pile, you just target X.

Thats how I see it too, but the "until" causes some people to interpret it differently.

How?  If you select them all together or individually, it's the exact same.  All the discards happen together anyway, and you can't do anything else or trigger anything else until Balance is completed, which is until you hit the balance.

So what's the other interpretation?

Mike seems to think you're limited by the number of cards that hit the discard pile, rather than how many you simply target.

Regarding (A), you discard until the condition is satisfied or you no longer have any to discard (i.e., some may be protected). You cannot discard more. Your count is by the number hitting the discard pile (the number actually discarded), not cards you directly targeted. For example, in the event cards may be "placed", if you discard the base card, you would discard the placed card with it (by game rule) and count it as two.

I'm not so sure that would be the proper action. If you CAN discard one in the fortress and avoid going over the prescribed number, I believe you SHOULD. Going over is not your only option and is not allowed by the special ability restriction. If you can find a way to meet the restriction, shouldn't that be the proper action?

Mike

I'm under the impression that its the "until" that helped him form that opinion. Im not speaking for him, but it seems that way.

Still, it wouldn't hurt to give it a play as that says "discard X" would it? Only reason I'm suggesting it is because I know the current SA was confusing to me at one point as well.

I agree it needs a play as to avoid this confusion, but I disagree that it should limit the number of discards. 

Well, the card is named, "Balance", and it does state, "...until the number of evil cards equals the number of good cards."  I would vote for an errata that includes a "Regardless of protection,...".  But that's just me.

Since I am in my "learn more about triggered abilities" phase, can someone tell me whether the "If two or more Heroes are in battle and if there are more evil cards in play than good cards" trigger is evaluated once at the start of the SA or continually as the discarding takes effect.  I think it's the latter, but on the other hand once the trigger is tripped wouldn't the then clause have to continue until it's portion of the SA completes?

You might like to re-write the card, but using your Basic language, I would say that the special ability should be done the way it is written on the card:

Balance()
    If (# of heroes in battle)>2 and (# of evil cards in play)>(#of good cards in play) <---- Instant one-time check.
    Then
        Do Until ( # of evil cards in play <= # of good cards in play And  discardable evil cards in play exist )
            Discard( 1 evil card in play that is discardable )
        End Do
    EndIf
End Balance()

The do until statement needs to be written that way to avoid an infinite loop and avoid discarding evil cards if the # of evil gets less than the number of good due to game rules.

It's certainly not broke. There's no good reason that it should discard cards that are protected from discard. And there's no good reason that cards that were placed on a card that is discarded shouldn't be discarded the way they always are. Because of the "until", I would say that you can keep selecting a card to discard in any order you choose until balance is reached and if a game rule then causes some other cards to be discarded as well, that's just the way Redemption works. Any enhancement in Redemption that discards cards can effectively discard more than it targeted because of game rules that cause others to also be discarded.

Mike

Okay so if the argument is # d/c'd evil cards, vs # targetted, what happens with a loaded dorkness? Two evil cards WILL hit the d/c pile and one of them wasn't included in the check....

This is exactly what I was talking about earlier when I wanted to take "until" out of the SA... because its a rather vauge term that can easily be interpreted two totally different ways. The idea of an instant ability (discarding) being more of a "continuous" ability does seem to go against the nature of instant abilities.

Also, another fun situation.... what happens if you discard a raiders camp full of heroes? According to how I see this, you'd still discard X, with X being based on the good/evil ratio BEFORE you started to discard.

Im not saying it wouldnt be fun as a dynamic card, I just try to make sure stuff is consistant with the other rules. It seems to be sort of an oddball only because it says "until."

I cant think of any other instant abilities with multiple targets that work on a one-by-one basis.

Besides, the card is still a blast to use regardless of which way this ruling goes.  I even have a combo offense based on it.

You might like to re-write the card, but using your Basic language, I would say that the special ability should be done the way it is written on the card:

Balance()
    If (# of heroes in battle)>2 and (# of evil cards in play)>(#of good cards in play) <---- Instant one-time check.
    Then
        Do Until ( # of evil cards in play <= # of good cards in play And  discardable evil cards in play exist )
            Discard( 1 evil card in play that is discardable )
        End Do
    EndIf
End Balance()

The do until statement needs to be written that way to avoid an infinite loop and avoid discarding evil cards if the # of evil gets less than the number of good due to game rules.

Except (as you note by your avoid condition) that is not what is written on the card.  The only part of the SA that prevents discarding evil cards when # evil < # good is the trigger. The card explicitly states that the until should be

  Do Until (# of evil cards in play == # of good cards in play)

This comes back to my question about the trigger. If the trigger is only evaluated once, then given the wording on the card (barring an errata) once the number of evil cards is less than the number of good cards, you will keep discarding evil as long as there is an evil card that can be discarded. If, on the other hand, the trigger is continually evaluated, then this issue is moot.