Author Topic: Balance questions (Read 16337 times)

STAMP · « **on:** February 21, 2010, 02:41:02 PM »

Balance
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Silver/Red • Ability: 2 / 2 • Class: None • Special Ability: If two or more Heroes are in battle and if there are more evil cards in play than good cards, discard evil cards from play until the number of evil cards equals the number of good cards. • Identifiers: NT, Depicts a Weapon • Verse: Galatians 6:2

I searched the Rulings Section and could only find one instance of a Balance ruling that impacts my questions.

1) Is targeting simultaneous for the SA on Balance?

2) If simultaneous, can protection protect against an evil card being targeted when Balance is played?

3) If evil cards can be protected from targeting from Balance, what happens when I target Kingdoms of this World that contains three evil characters? Does game rule apply and the 3 EC are discarded? If discarded, do they count when doing the Balance "math" even though they weren't originally targeted?

4) What if you are unable to target enough evil cards to equal the number of good cards?

5) Finally, based on the wording (the use of "until"), does Balance simultaneously target and discard evil cards that are not protected, then checks again, and re-targets?

crustpope · « **Reply #1 on:** February 21, 2010, 02:54:44 PM »

When balance is played and all the conditions are met, the first thing you do is totall up the # of Good vs. Evil Cards to determine the Number of evil cards that are to be discarded

1. Yes..after you total them up, then you target them but based on the word "until", I would guess that you target them one at a time so, depending upon the order you target them protection can change.

2. ~~Yes, but this protection can change depending on the order you choose to target the evil cards since protection is dynamic~~ nvm...im an idiot

3. Game rule applies and EC's follow KotW. I would say yes they count since they are evil cards, but you could probably get away with it if KOTW was the last card you d/ced since they would be "collateral damage" with the last card d/ced.

4. I dont see how this is possible since most fortresses are not protected from d/c and when y ou d/c them you can then target lots of other things.

5. see #1

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #2 on:** February 21, 2010, 03:00:44 PM »

1) Is targeting simultaneous for the SA on Balance?

Yes.

2) If simultaneous, can protection protect against an evil card being targeted when Balance is played?

This question is oddly worded.... can you rephrase?

3) If evil cards can be protected from targeting from Balance, what happens when I target Kingdoms of this World that contains three evil characters? Does game rule apply and the 3 EC are discarded? If discarded, do they count when doing the Balance "math" even though they weren't originally targeted?

I would say hitting a KotW counts as a single discard, as balance itself did not target the three ECs inside it for discard. Thus, they would become "collateral damage" as said.

4) What if you are unable to target enough evil cards to equal the number of good cards?

Do as much as you can? Although, if this was to happen, that would mean you'd have to have discarded all of your OWN evil cards.

5) Finally, based on the wording (the use of "until"), does Balance simultaneously target and discard evil cards that are not protected, then checks again, and re-targets?

Even if it DID do it one by one, discarding a fort does not negate its protection, so the characters would still be safe.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #3 on:** February 21, 2010, 03:02:22 PM »

Quote

4. I dont see how this is possible since most fortresses are not protected from d/c and when y ou d/c them you can then target lots of other things.

Remember all cards (even discarded) are active till the end of the current phase. So just cuz you snipe the protect fort doesn't remove the protection.

Edit: Some complete nub instaposted me. SHEESH what a noob.

to him though.

everytribe · « **Reply #4 on:** February 21, 2010, 03:13:01 PM »

So you blow up the fort and it still protects. Hmmmm, interesting!

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #5 on:** February 21, 2010, 03:20:56 PM »

You CM captian of the Host and the battle is still FBTN... this has been a rule for a long time.

Unless negated, the ability on a discarded card continues until the end of the current phase.

crustpope · « **Reply #6 on:** February 21, 2010, 05:23:52 PM »

Good point. I forgot about that. so yeah, balance activates, it targets and then you do as much as you can. If cards are protected from D/c then they are protected ....then you just go to the d/c pile next turn and do it again

STAMP · « **Reply #7 on:** February 22, 2010, 11:59:14 AM »

Your responses are basically what I anticipated. However, it also seems by those responses that we need some official confirmation on two issues:

A) The phrase, "discard evil cards from play until the number of evil cards equals the number of good cards.", as worded does not readily translate to the game rule that you do "up to" something. The wording implies you can't go on until you reach x=y. So if you can't get to x=y, what do you do?

B) When doing the "math", even though an evil card is not targeted does it count towards calculating to check for x=y if it is discarded by a game rule? In other words, if there are y+1 evil cards can I target KotW and also discard the EC inside it, thereby causing the check to be x<y?

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #8 on:** February 22, 2010, 03:47:06 PM »

I think Balance could recieve a play as that reads

If two or more heros are in battle, Discard X evil cards. X = the number of good cards in play subtracted by the number of evil cards in play.

Also, an interesting question I just though up... What happens if I have a Philosphy stashed away in my storehouse? Its both good and evil...

STAMP · « **Reply #9 on:** February 22, 2010, 04:23:34 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on February 22, 2010, 03:47:06 PM

I think Balance could recieve a play as that reads

If two or more heros are in battle, Discard X evil cards. X = the number of good cards in play subtracted by the number of evil cards in play.

Also, an interesting question I just though up... What happens if I have a Philosphy stashed away in my storehouse? Its both good and evil...

Sorry, I can't resist asking: and if you have Philosophy in your Storehouse, and it had to be played to get there, shouldn't it be either good or evil, not both?

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #10 on:** February 22, 2010, 04:32:15 PM »

No, because it was playced there.

STAMP · « **Reply #11 on:** February 22, 2010, 04:34:07 PM »

Ba-da-ching!

(I'll have to tell MJB I can play the straight man, too.

)

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #12 on:** February 22, 2010, 04:59:52 PM »

Quote from: STAMP on February 22, 2010, 04:34:07 PM

(I'll have to tell MJB I can play the straight man, too. )

Yeah. The only difference is that now someone will post about how STAMP is the awesomest straight man of all time.

P.S. If you want to find a quote about how hard it is to be a good straight man, I can give you a couple of Google searches you most definitely do NOT want to use.

everytribe · « **Reply #13 on:** February 22, 2010, 06:52:46 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on February 21, 2010, 03:20:56 PM

You CM captian of the Host and the battle is still FBTN... this has been a rule for a long time.
Unless negated, the ability on a discarded card continues until the end of the current phase.

FBTN is an exception so that there is not a loop. If Jacob bands to Captian and I defend with the 12 Fingered Giant. The battle is not FBTN

frisian9 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 23, 2010, 10:47:47 AM »

Quote from: STAMP on February 22, 2010, 11:59:14 AM

Your responses are basically what I anticipated. However, it also seems by those responses that we need some official confirmation on two issues:

A) The phrase, "discard evil cards from play until the number of evil cards equals the number of good cards.", as worded does not readily translate to the game rule that you do "up to" something. The wording implies you can't go on until you reach x=y. So if you can't get to x=y, what do you do?

B) When doing the "math", even though an evil card is not targeted does it count towards calculating to check for x=y if it is discarded by a game rule? In other words, if there are y+1 evil cards can I target KotW and also discard the EC inside it, thereby causing the check to be x<y?

I'll throw in my two cents here. Regarding (B), protect (things that can't be targeted) does not apply to counting. Protect applies to special abilities. Hence, you have to count all cards, regardless of protection. The restriction is "in play", so don't count cards "out of play" (i.e., draw pile, discard pile, hand, land of bondage, set-aside area).

Regarding (A), you discard until the condition is satisfied or you no longer have any to discard (i.e., some may be protected). You cannot discard more. Your count is by the number hitting the discard pile (the number actually discarded), not cards you directly targeted. For example, in the event cards may be "placed", if you discard the base card, you would discard the placed card with it (by game rule) and count it as two.

Mike

Balance

Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Silver/Red • Ability: 2 / 2 • Class: None • Special Ability: If two or more Heroes are in battle and if there are more evil cards in play than good cards, discard evil cards from play until the number of evil cards equals the number of good cards. • Identifiers: NT, Depicts a Weapon • Verse: Galatians 6:2 • Availability: Angel Wars booster packs (Ultra Rare)

frisian9 · « **Reply #15 on:** February 23, 2010, 10:53:52 AM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on February 22, 2010, 03:47:06 PM

I think Balance could recieve a play as that reads

If two or more heros are in battle, Discard X evil cards. X = the number of good cards in play subtracted by the number of evil cards in play.

Also, an interesting question I just though up... What happens if I have a Philosphy stashed away in my storehouse? Its both good and evil...

We consider Philosophy an neutral card in Type 2 deck building, so I would consider Philosophy neutral. The alternative would be both good and evil.

Mike

STAMP · « **Reply #16 on:** February 23, 2010, 05:44:00 PM »

So can I discard KotW as my last evil card which may cause the discarding of extra evil cards thereby leaving less evil cards in play than good cards (an imBalance)?

The Schaef · « **Reply #17 on:** February 23, 2010, 08:14:04 PM »

It is my understanding that Philosophy is both a good card and an evil card at face value. It can be targeted for discard by Balance.

But since it is both types at once, it does not affect T2 deck counts in either direction (net change of zero), and it counts as one of each when counting for Balance (again, net change of zero).

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #18 on:** February 23, 2010, 08:41:18 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on February 23, 2010, 08:14:04 PM

It is my understanding that Philosophy is both a good card and an evil card at face value. It can be targeted for discard by Balance.

But since it is both types at once, it does not affect T2 deck counts in either direction (net change of zero), and it counts as one of each when counting for Balance (again, net change of zero).

I knew it could be discarded, but would it count as both a good and evil card for the good/evil ratio on Balance?

The Schaef · « **Reply #19 on:** February 23, 2010, 09:01:25 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on February 23, 2010, 08:41:18 PM

Quote from: The Schaef on February 23, 2010, 08:14:04 PM
It is my understanding that Philosophy is both a good card and an evil card at face value. It can be targeted for discard by Balance.

But since it is both types at once, it does not affect T2 deck counts in either direction (net change of zero), and it counts as one of each when counting for Balance (again, net change of zero).

I knew it could be discarded, but would it count as both a good and evil card for the good/evil ratio on Balance?

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #20 on:** February 23, 2010, 09:06:31 PM »

Alright, I only asked again because you were talking about T2, so I wasn't sure if you intended for that to answer the second question.

Only question I have left is the one STAMP is asking, about if you can target a full KotW as your last discard, and discard MORE than you were supposed to.

Shofarblower · « **Reply #21 on:** February 23, 2010, 11:51:29 PM »

I am not a PTB by any definition, but, I would say that targeting a bunch of EC's and Evil Forts, then hitting KoTW to dc 3 extra cards is just good strategy. Balance has been one of my favorite cards since AW was released, I just never seem to get to pull it off (stopped playing red at about the same time).

The Schaef · « **Reply #22 on:** February 24, 2010, 12:06:49 AM »

Agreed. Blow up the Fort last and watch the ECs get sucked into the black hole with it.

frisian9 · « **Reply #23 on:** February 24, 2010, 09:58:25 AM »

I'm not so sure that would be the proper action. If you CAN discard one in the fortress and avoid going over the prescribed number, I believe you SHOULD. Going over is not your only option and is not allowed by the special ability restriction. If you can find a way to meet the restriction, shouldn't that be the proper action?

Mike

Professoralstad · « **Reply #24 on:** February 24, 2010, 10:11:52 AM »

Quote from: frisian9 on February 24, 2010, 09:58:25 AM

I'm not so sure that would be the proper action. If you CAN discard one in the fortress

Well, in this case you can't, since KotW protect the ECs in it. No matter how you slice it, you still might end up with a situation where there are only 3 good cards in play (the two heroes and balance) and 5 evil cards in play (the blocking EC, KotW, and the three EC's therein). Since the only available targets are the EC in battle (as long as he's not immune or something) and KotW, then you could leave at most 2 evil cards in play (if you discard KotW first). Either way, the "balance" will be off, so it seems easier to say that you could "tip the scales" more in your favor if you so choose, by nuking KotW last.

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Author Topic: Balance questions (Read 16337 times)

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef