Author Topic: Balance (Read 4370 times)

Josh · « **on:** November 23, 2010, 10:35:27 PM »

How does Balance work in regards to, say, Wolves in Sheep's Clothing and the heretics it protects? WiSC's ability has a colon, so the protection ceases as soon as WiSC is no longer in territory. Assuming you can discard enough evil cards, does Balance discard one evil card at a time (each time checking the ratio of evil/good cards) or does it discard all its targets at once?

Balance (AW)

Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Silver/Red • Ability: 2 / 2 • Class: None • Special Ability: If two or more Heroes are in battle and if there are more evil cards in play than good cards, discard evil cards from play until the number of evil cards equals the number of good cards.

Wolves in Sheep's Clothing (Di)

Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Crimson • Ability: None • Class: Territory • Special Ability: Place in your territory: Your heretics cannot be ignored. Protect heretics in your territory from opponents' cards. You may discard this to heal a heretic.

adotson85 · « **Reply #1 on:** November 23, 2010, 11:02:15 PM »

Quote from: jmhartz on November 23, 2010, 10:35:27 PM

How does Balance work in regards to, say, Wolves in Sheep's Clothing and the heretics it protects? WiSC's ability has a colon, so the protection ceases as soon as WiSC is no longer in territory. Assuming you can discard enough evil cards, does Balance discard one evil card at a time (each time checking the ratio of evil/good cards) or does it discard all its targets at once?

Balance (AW)

Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Silver/Red • Ability: 2 / 2 • Class: None • Special Ability: If two or more Heroes are in battle and if there are more evil cards in play than good cards, discard evil cards from play until the number of evil cards equals the number of good cards.

Wolves in Sheep's Clothing (Di)

Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Crimson • Ability: None • Class: Territory • Special Ability: Place in your territory: Your heretics cannot be ignored. Protect heretics in your territory from opponents' cards. You may discard this to heal a heretic.

I thought placed enhancements were CBN after the phase in which they were played in. I would say Balance does discard one at a time because of the wording, mostly because of the word "until."

christiangamer25 · « **Reply #2 on:** November 23, 2010, 11:54:50 PM »

lol nice trick but providing angel and marketplace smile at you

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #3 on:** November 24, 2010, 12:54:18 AM »

Adotson is half right. The placing of place cards is CBN in later phases, but the ability after the colon refreshes every phase (i.e. is negatable) and stops working instantly if it is no longer placed where it needs to be to work. But Balance does discard one at a time and check dynamically as the SA is being carried out. For example, Balance is meaning to Discard 2 cards, and you have KotW with an EC and another EC in your territory. If you Discard KotW first, you're done, but if you Discard the other EC, then KotW, you've gotten all 3 cards.

The Guardian · « **Reply #4 on:** November 24, 2010, 01:56:58 AM »

Josh · « **Reply #5 on:** November 24, 2010, 07:25:33 AM »

So if I can discard 5 cards with Balance, and my opponent has WiSC and 4 heretics in territory (and no CP), then I can discard WiSC first, and then discard the 4 heretics. Correct?

Korunks · « **Reply #6 on:** November 24, 2010, 07:39:58 AM »

Correct.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #7 on:** November 24, 2010, 08:42:56 AM »

I'm a little confused. I thought ongoing abilities that are not negated remain until the end of the phase. "Protect" is an ongoing ability in this case.

Korunks · « **Reply #8 on:** November 24, 2010, 09:35:17 AM »

It has to do with the way cards that have the : in their ability were ruled to work. I think it works like this:

Condition A : Action B

While Condition A is met, perfrom Action B. If Condition A fails, negate Condition B. I may be thinking of it wrong but that is the understanding I got from how the abilities work.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #9 on:** November 24, 2010, 10:10:10 AM »

I was not aware of an official ruling on colons. I must have missed that discussion.

Even so, in this case, the SA with the colon is not the question. The second ability was active during the phase and then not negated. This seems more like a situation where Confusion of Mind is discarded, but not negated. I do not see the difference.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #10 on:** November 24, 2010, 11:03:00 AM »

The difference is that CoM is not a place card with a "Condition: Effect" setup.

STAMP · « **Reply #11 on:** November 24, 2010, 11:09:29 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on November 24, 2010, 10:10:10 AM

I was not aware of an official ruling on colons. I must have missed that discussion.

I doubt there was a discussion. It would have degenerated quite quickly I think.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #12 on:** November 24, 2010, 01:07:47 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on November 24, 2010, 10:10:10 AM

I was not aware of an official ruling on colons. I must have missed that discussion.

Even so, in this case, the SA with the colon is not the question. The second ability was active during the phase and then not negated. This seems more like a situation where Confusion of Mind is discarded, but not negated. I do not see the difference.

There was never a discussion, but rather, the Article for Peter's Curse confirmed it:

Quote

Notice how the special ability is worded. It begins with a place ability with its potential targets listed. Immediately following that is a colon. Following the colon is the special ability that only works if the card is first placed as described preceding the colon. This wording arrangement appears on a few other cards in The Disciples and will probably continue in future sets.

http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/red_game_articles_disciples-3.php

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #13 on:** November 24, 2010, 07:20:17 PM »

So..... the first sentence can only work if the card is placed.....

In the mean time, we are talking about the second sentence, which has no colon.

The M · « **Reply #14 on:** November 24, 2010, 07:49:13 PM »

Quote from: Your[Grammar]Teacher on November 24, 2010, 07:20:17 PM

So..... the first sentence can only work if the card is placed.....

In the mean time, we are talking about the second sentence, which has no colon.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #15 on:** November 24, 2010, 08:22:54 PM »

Oh wait, you're saying that everything after the colon is conditional?

So this card cannot be played as a healing enhancement, and could not hypthetically be searched for as a healing enhancement?

The Schaef · « **Reply #16 on:** November 24, 2010, 08:32:51 PM »

Well, it says if the card is "first" placed, meaning the effect doesn't activate until you place it. That would make it conditional but I don't think it would make it not-a-healing (or whatever) -enhancement, and I don't think that means the same thing as it only works for as long as it's placed. I think it follows the rule of other abilities that are ongoing and active.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #17 on:** November 24, 2010, 08:41:06 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on November 24, 2010, 08:32:51 PM

... and I don't think that means the same thing as it only works for as long as it's placed. I think it follows the rule of other abilities that are ongoing and active.

In which case the discard of WiSC with Balance would not allow the discard of the heretics. Does that mean you are agreeing with me? Woo-hoo!

The Schaef · « **Reply #18 on:** November 24, 2010, 08:46:29 PM »

I'm just opinining at the moment; it's just that there seems to be a lot of overthinking the plumbing lately.

Korunks · « **Reply #19 on:** November 29, 2010, 08:26:45 AM »

BUMP

Can we have some more elder input on this issue? Does the protect from Wolves in Sheeps Clothing continue during the battle it was discarded in?

Master_Chi · « **Reply #20 on:** December 01, 2010, 11:19:18 AM »

Artifacts are neutral, correct? Or could you discard an "Evil" artifact (such as Unholy Writ or 30 Pieces) on the basis that they are Evil because they have the intention of harming Heroes?

Professoralstad · « **Reply #21 on:** December 01, 2010, 11:33:04 AM »

Quote from: Master_Chi on December 01, 2010, 11:19:18 AM

Artifacts are neutral, correct? Or could you discard an "Evil" artifact (such as Unholy Writ or 30 Pieces) on the basis that they are Evil because they have the intention of harming Heroes?

All Artifacts are neutral for game play purposes regardless of who they help or hurt. Unholy Writ is not evil, nor is Holy Grail good.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #22 on:** December 01, 2010, 11:35:29 AM »

Quote from: Korunks on November 29, 2010, 08:26:45 AM

BUMP

Can we have some more elder input on this issue? Does the protect from Wolves in Sheeps Clothing continue during the battle it was discarded in?

I would say that the protection stops as soon as WiSC is discarded, just like a character that would normally be ignored but is not because of Golgotha is ignored as soon as the skull icon card is discarded.

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Author Topic: Balance (Read 4370 times)

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef

The Schaef