Author Topic: Babylonian Siege Army against CBN/CBI or taking card already in play? (Read 4716 times)

Reth · « **on:** April 02, 2019, 06:26:05 PM »

Hi there,

question in Subject: What happens if I play Babs Siege Army against such a card, e.g. Sam (RoA) or David (Cow) or an enhancement which is CBN/CBI (or became it)?

Babylonian Siege Army: Negate a good or neutral card. If it is an Artifact, take it. If it is a human, capture it. If it is an Enhancement, discard it. If it is a Site or Fortress, reserve it.

Another question: Can I take a card (e.g. HSR) when using Babs Siege Army when I already have HSR out on my side?

Thank you for clarification!

Bye

ArmedKevin117 · « **Reply #1 on:** April 02, 2019, 09:33:02 PM »

If I understand correctly, you could. It would go to your hand. However, you couldn't play it while you already had one.

Anyone confirm/deny?

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #2 on:** April 02, 2019, 09:43:55 PM »

In regards to the first - Because BSA is a Cost/Benefit ability, if you can't target the card for the Negate, then you can't take it. So anything that's CBI/CBN isn't a valid target.

For the second absolutely.

The Guardian · « **Reply #3 on:** April 02, 2019, 10:01:49 PM »

Mmm, I disagree...you can still target an ability for negate even if it that targeting does nothing. It would be the same idea as targeting a Hero without a special ability.

If the ability read: "Negate a Hero to capture it, then I would agree you couldn't capture a CBN/CBI Hero.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #4 on:** April 02, 2019, 10:04:38 PM »

You can't target it with the negate at all. I'll quote the REG in a moment.

Because you can't target it, there's no reference for the "If it is"

Quote

Cannot be Negated
Last Updated: 1/3/2018 (v5.0.0)
Released: 7/26/2011
How to Play
● The cannot be negated modifier modifies an ability, making it so that the modified ability cannot be targeted by
any interrupt, prevent or negate effect

Kor · « **Reply #5 on:** April 03, 2019, 09:24:42 AM »

I agree with The Guardian. It would be the ability that can’t be targeted, not the card.

Gabe · « **Reply #6 on:** April 03, 2019, 09:59:04 AM »

Quote from: Kor on April 03, 2019, 09:24:42 AM

I agree with The Guardian. It would be the ability that can’t be targeted, not the card.

I agree with you that it's the ability that cannot be targeted, not the card, but...

Quote from: REG>How to Play

Negate effects target the abilities that they negate.

...since negate targets abilities, not cards, I'm pretty sure RDT is correct on this one.

Ironisaac · « **Reply #7 on:** April 03, 2019, 10:07:24 AM »

Here's a follow up question: if you can only negate part of a card's ability, can you still take/capture/etc with BSA? Or does he have to negate the WHOLE card to do that?

Example: I target Uriah the Hittite with BSA. It negates his protect ability, but he still makes discard abilities cbn, including his ability that discards himself an an evil character in play when David is in play. Is he a legal target for BSA?

Spoiler (hover to show)

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #8 on:** April 03, 2019, 10:11:25 AM »

Quote from: Ironisaac on April 03, 2019, 10:07:24 AM

Here's a follow up question: if you can only negate part of a card's ability, can you still take/capture/etc with BSA? Or does he have to negate the WHOLE card to do that?

Example: I target Uriah the Hittite with BSA. It negates his protect ability, but he still makes discard abilities cbn, including his ability that discards himself an an evil character in play when David is in play. Is he a legal target for BSA?
Spoiler (hover to show)

It should only need to negate part of it to count as targeting the card for the rest of BSA's ability.

Gabe · « **Reply #9 on:** April 03, 2019, 10:14:45 AM »

Quote from: Kevinthedude on April 03, 2019, 10:11:25 AM

Quote from: Ironisaac on April 03, 2019, 10:07:24 AM
Here's a follow up question: if you can only negate part of a card's ability, can you still take/capture/etc with BSA? Or does he have to negate the WHOLE card to do that?

Example: I target Uriah the Hittite with BSA. It negates his protect ability, but he still makes discard abilities cbn, including his ability that discards himself an an evil character in play when David is in play. Is he a legal target for BSA?
Spoiler (hover to show)

It should only need to negate part of it to count as targeting the card for the rest of BSA's ability.

Kor · « **Reply #10 on:** April 03, 2019, 11:05:00 AM »

So if a card says ‘negate and capture a hero’ can it target a CBN hero? Because that is how siege army reads to me.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #11 on:** April 03, 2019, 11:07:07 AM »

Quote from: Kor on April 03, 2019, 11:05:00 AM

So if a card says ‘negate and capture a hero’ can it target a CBN hero? Because that is how siege army reads to me.

It can. BSA works different than an ability written that way because of how the clauses are split up. The rest of BSA's ability relies on the targeting done by the negate.

Kor · « **Reply #12 on:** April 03, 2019, 12:21:11 PM »

How about if a card says 'capture and negate a hero'. Hero is protected from capture. Can you play it to negate the hero? (hero is not captured either way)

Bobbert · « **Reply #13 on:** April 03, 2019, 12:29:50 PM »

Quote from: Kor on April 03, 2019, 12:21:11 PM

How about if a card says 'capture and negate a hero'. Hero is protected from capture. Can you play it to negate the hero? (hero is not captured either way)

If it said exactly that, you wouldn't be able to. For a similar reason, old DoN ("Discard one active Artifact in play. Artifact's ability is negated.") couldn't target Lampstand of the Sanctuary ("Protect all cards not in battle from evil Dominants (grim-reaper icon cards)."). Since DoN didn't negate before discarding, Lampy was still protected when the discard triggered.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #14 on:** April 03, 2019, 12:48:46 PM »

Quote from: Bobbert on April 03, 2019, 12:29:50 PM

Quote from: Kor on April 03, 2019, 12:21:11 PM
How about if a card says 'capture and negate a hero'. Hero is protected from capture. Can you play it to negate the hero? (hero is not captured either way)

If it said exactly that, you wouldn't be able to. For a similar reason, old DoN ("Discard one active Artifact in play. Artifact's ability is negated.") couldn't target Lampstand of the Sanctuary ("Protect all cards not in battle from evil Dominants (grim-reaper icon cards)."). Since DoN didn't negate before discarding, Lampy was still protected when the discard triggered.

That's not entirely accurate. If a card said "capture and negate a Hero" it could negate a Hero protected from capture. If it said "Capture a character. If it's a Hero, negate it" then it would not be able to negate a Hero protected from capture.

In the case of Lampstand the problem was just that the discard happened before the negate. Old DoN can negate Lampy fine, it just can't discard it.

Kor · « **Reply #15 on:** April 03, 2019, 01:01:39 PM »

Actually that is exactly my point. How can DoN negate Lampstand if it isn’t targeted by the discard?

And how is that situation different than Siege Army?

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #16 on:** April 03, 2019, 01:04:36 PM »

Quote from: Kor on April 03, 2019, 01:01:39 PM

Actually that is exactly my point. How can DoN negate Lampstand if it isn’t targeted by the discard?

And how is that situation different than Siege Army?

Because in the case of "Discard and negate a card", the negate doesn't rely on the discard to target.

In the case of "Discard a card. Negate that card" the negate needs the discard to have targeted something otherwise "that card" refers to nothing.

Kor · « **Reply #17 on:** April 03, 2019, 01:15:03 PM »

Quote from: Kevinthedude on April 03, 2019, 01:04:36 PM

Quote from: Kor on April 03, 2019, 01:01:39 PM
Actually that is exactly my point. How can DoN negate Lampstand if it isn’t targeted by the discard?

And how is that situation different than Siege Army?

Because in the case of "Discard and negate a card", the negate doesn't rely on the discard to target.

In the case of "Discard a card. Negate that card" the negate needs the discard to have targeted something otherwise "that card" refers to nothing.

But he second is what DoN says

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #18 on:** April 03, 2019, 01:21:00 PM »

Quote from: Kor on April 03, 2019, 01:15:03 PM

Quote from: Kevinthedude on April 03, 2019, 01:04:36 PM
Quote from: Kor on April 03, 2019, 01:01:39 PM
Actually that is exactly my point. How can DoN negate Lampstand if it isn’t targeted by the discard?

And how is that situation different than Siege Army?

Because in the case of "Discard and negate a card", the negate doesn't rely on the discard to target.

In the case of "Discard a card. Negate that card" the negate needs the discard to have targeted something otherwise "that card" refers to nothing.

But he second is what DoN says

Only because of outdated wording. The play-as says "discard and negate an artifact".

Kor · « **Reply #19 on:** April 03, 2019, 01:34:59 PM »

And Siege Army has that same bad wording, so should have the same play as.

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #20 on:** April 03, 2019, 01:56:01 PM »

Quote from: Kor on April 03, 2019, 01:34:59 PM

And Siege Army has that same bad wording, so should have the same play as.

Siege Army is functionally different than abilities like DoN, not just a case of outdated, inconsistent wording.

Kor · « **Reply #21 on:** April 03, 2019, 02:02:19 PM »

Also see Joseph Before Pharoah for almost identical original wording with this play as.

Kor · « **Reply #22 on:** April 03, 2019, 03:16:24 PM »

So to summarize:

1. Negate and X abilities can do the X to CBN cards
2. Play As are not errata but fixing of bad wording, and should be consistent of all cards with that wording.
3. Joseph before Pharoah and DoN have the same bad original wording as Babylonian Siege Army
4. JBP has the Play As: Negate and X
5. Siege Army should also have this Play As
6. Siege Army should be able to do the X to CBN cards

Kevinthedude · « **Reply #23 on:** April 03, 2019, 03:34:39 PM »

Quote from: Kor on April 03, 2019, 03:16:24 PM

So to summarize:

1. Negate and X abilities can do the X to CBN cards
2. Play As are not errata but fixing of bad wording, and should be consistent of all cards with that wording.
3. Joseph before Pharoah and DoN have the same bad original wording as Babylonian Siege Army
4. JBP has the Play As: Negate and X
5. Siege Army should also have this Play As
6. Siege Army should be able to do the X to CBN cards

Siege Army was made after wording was standardized so the default assumption is that the current wording is intentional. It doesn't require play-as just because cards with similar wording in the past were changed.

Reth · « **Reply #24 on:** April 03, 2019, 03:52:33 PM »

So if going with the majority BSA cannot target cards which are CBN/CBI. Is this official now?

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Author Topic: Babylonian Siege Army against CBN/CBI or taking card already in play? (Read 4716 times)