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Author Topic: Astrologers vs Artifact Piles  (Read 2150 times)

Offline Master KChief

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Astrologers vs Artifact Piles
« on: July 07, 2010, 03:22:12 PM »
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if my opponent uses astrologers (txp) against me and forces me to discard a card from my territory, can i discard a face down artifact?

Astrologers
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Crimson/Pale Green • Ability: 3 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: Reveal the top or bottom card of deck. If it is evil, add it to hand and opponent must discard one of his cards from territory, except a Lost Soul. Cannot be interrutped. • Attributes: Generic, Magician (Babylonian) • Identifiers: Generic OT Male Human, Magician (Babylonia) • Verse: Daniel 2:27 • Availability: Thesaurus ex Preteritus booster packs ()
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Offline BubbleBoy

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Re: Astrologers vs Artifact Piles
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2010, 03:36:41 PM »
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Nope, not in play.
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Offline Master KChief

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Re: Astrologers vs Artifact Piles
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2010, 03:40:04 PM »
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are face down artifacts in territory?
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Offline BubbleBoy

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Re: Astrologers vs Artifact Piles
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2010, 03:42:43 PM »
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Quote from: Master KChief on July 07, 2010, 03:40:04 PM
are face down artifacts in territory?
I'm pretty sure face-down cards are considered nowhere in Redemption. If not, I will rejoice.
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Offline TheKarazyvicePresidentRR

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Re: Astrologers vs Artifact Piles
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2010, 03:49:50 PM »
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No. They are out of play.
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Offline TheJaylor

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Re: Astrologers vs Artifact Piles
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2010, 03:56:22 PM »
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Quote from: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on July 07, 2010, 03:49:50 PM
No. They are out of play.

 +1 they are in your artifact pile which yeah isn't in play or territory, so...
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Astrologers vs Artifact Piles
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2010, 04:40:11 PM »
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From the REG:

Quote
Territory

Territory is an area within the Field of Play. The player’s territory includes his Lost Souls, Evil Characters, Heroes, artifacts, fortresses and sites. See Player’s Card Arrangement.
Also, this:
Quote
Cards that are placed face down are considered out of play.  Only special abilities that specifically target “face down” cards apply to cards that are face down
.

But then there's this:

Quote
Artifact Pile

An artifact pile contains a player’s grail icon cards. This pile is located in the player’s territory within the Field of Play. See Player’s Card Arrangement.

And as for face down cards not being in territory, there's this:

Quote
Blinding Demon

Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Orange • Ability: 2 / 2 • Class: None • Special Ability: Negate good drawing and good search abilities. Remove all face-down Heroes in battle, territory or set-aside from the game. Cannot be interrupted.

So obviously something is awry, but I would probably rule that "in territory" in a special ability means "in territory AND face-up (in play)" unless face down is specified, as it is on Blinding Demon.

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Offline SirNobody

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Re: Astrologers vs Artifact Piles
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2010, 12:05:19 PM »
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Hey,

A face down artifact is out of play and in the Artifact Pile.  The artifact pile itself is in play, but it's contents are not necessarily in play.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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TheHobbit13

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Re: Astrologers vs Artifact Piles
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2010, 12:21:11 PM »
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Quick Artifact question. If Writ is set aside with samaritan water jar can I activate another writ?
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Astrologers vs Artifact Piles
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2010, 12:25:57 PM »
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I don't believe so. Artifacts are unique, so I assume they would undergo the same restrictions as unique characters.
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Offline SirNobody

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Re: Astrologers vs Artifact Piles
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2010, 01:31:17 PM »
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Hey,

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on July 09, 2010, 12:21:11 PM
Quick Artifact question. If Writ is set aside with samaritan water jar can I activate another writ?

Yes.  The uniqueness rule for artifacts is different than the uniqueness rule for characters.  The only restriction on artifacts is that you cannot have two of the same artifact active at the same time.  Controlling multiple copies of an artifact is not a problem as long as only one of them is active as an artifact.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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TheHobbit13

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Re: Astrologers vs Artifact Piles
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2010, 01:41:14 PM »
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Quote from: SirNobody on July 09, 2010, 01:31:17 PM
Hey,

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on July 09, 2010, 12:21:11 PM
Quick Artifact question. If Writ is set aside with samaritan water jar can I activate another writ?

Yes.  The uniqueness rule for artifacts is different than the uniqueness rule for characters.  The only restriction on artifacts is that you cannot have two of the same artifact active at the same time.  Controlling multiple copies of an artifact is not a problem as long as only one of them is active as an artifact.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

COOL! yay i hate teh jar...
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Astrologers vs Artifact Piles
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2010, 02:21:29 PM »
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Quote from: SirNobody on July 09, 2010, 01:31:17 PM
Yes.  The uniqueness rule for artifacts is different than the uniqueness rule for characters. 

Is the same true of Fortresses as well? I believe you told me at the T2 Tournament that I couldn't put a WoP in play when one was set aside.

Also, is that written anywhere official yet? Just making sure that that statement will be clarified in the new REG.
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Offline SirNobody

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Re: Astrologers vs Artifact Piles
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2010, 08:38:59 PM »
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Hey,

The Third Edition Rulebook says:

Quote
Note: All artifact, covenant, and fortress cards are unique.  You are allowed one of each card type with the same name in play at a time.

There have been questions over the years about Covenant of Moses in particular regarding multiple copies being used as an enhancement in the same battle and using one copy as an enhancement while you have another copy active as an artifact.  Rulings have always allowed using multiples as long as only one was used as an artifact.  My answer regarding Unholy Writ was an extrapolation from those facts. 

Fortresses are trickier because you don't activate them the same way you activate Artifacts.  If you go strictly by the note from the Rulebook, since it only says in play, you could have one set aside by water jar and another in your territory.  But that would also allow you to have multiple copies of Tartaros or Chamber of Angels out at the same time, which I do not believe is intended or allowed.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Offline everytribe

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Re: Astrologers vs Artifact Piles
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2010, 09:50:12 PM »
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Sooooooo.........The answer is?????????
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Offline adotson85

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Re: Astrologers vs Artifact Piles
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2010, 10:02:16 PM »
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You are only allowed to posess one copy of any fortress at anytime. So if your fortress is set aside with water jar you can not put another copy of that same fortress into play. At least that is what Gabe has always ruled in our games.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2010, 10:05:09 PM by adotson85 »
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Offline YourMathTeacher

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Re: Astrologers vs Artifact Piles
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2010, 10:51:25 PM »
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I'm confused. The rulebook says that they are unique and can only have one in play. Set aside is not in play. Why would you not be allowed to have a fortress in territory if one was set aside?
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: Astrologers vs Artifact Piles
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2010, 12:12:55 AM »
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Quote from: YourMathTeacher on July 09, 2010, 10:51:25 PM
I'm confused. The rulebook says that they are unique and can only have one in play. Set aside is not in play. Why would you not be allowed to have a fortress in territory if one was set aside?

I think the rulebook quote has been extrapolated for Fortresses to work like unique characters, i.e., only one allowed on your side of the table. That would make sense, but I couldn't find if that was in the current rules, and with Tim's view of Artifacts, maybe it's incorrect.

How Fortresses activate shouldn't make a difference. If I have a WoP in my set-aside area, it was ruled to not work, i.e, it didn't activate. So what would be the difference between a set-aside Artifact that is not active and having the same Artifact on your Artifact pile, and having a set-aside Fortress that is not active and having the same Fortress in your territory?

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