Author Topic: Assyrian Survivor and Suicidal Swine Stampede (Read 3393 times)

Drrek · « **on:** July 23, 2012, 07:20:27 PM »

So this came up in a game at PA states on Saturday. If Survivor is removed from the game by Suicidal Swine Stampede, is he captured to opponents' land of bondage? Since DoU was ruled to send Survivor over, I thought it would, but I wasn't sure if it could Survivor's ability would be able to bring him back from remove from game.

Redoubter · « **Reply #1 on:** July 23, 2012, 07:25:44 PM »

Quote from: Drrek on July 23, 2012, 07:20:27 PM

So this came up in a game at PA states on Saturday. If Survivor is removed from the game by Suicidal Swine Stampede, is he captured to opponents' land of bondage? Since DoU was ruled to send Survivor over, I thought it would, but I wasn't sure if it could Survivor's ability would be able to bring him back from remove from game.

By a strict reading of the rules on Defeat (hahaha, as if it's definitive...), no.

Defeat
Defeat is caused when a character’s toughness is less than or equal to an opposing character’s strength. A defeat also occurs when a character is stopped from achieving his goal in battle. A Hero(es) is defeated when the Hero(es) in battle are discarded, repelled or otherwise fails to make a successful rescue such as in a stalemate. The Evil Character(s) is defeated when the Evil Character(s) in battle are discarded, ignored or otherwise fails to stop the Hero from making a successful rescue such as in a mutual destruction by numbers.

Being removed from the game is not a condition causing defeat, unless the hero successfully rescues. Only discard is listed.

*goes to make popcorn*

TimMierz · « **Reply #2 on:** July 24, 2012, 08:53:01 AM »

Quote from: Redoubter on July 23, 2012, 07:25:44 PM

The Evil Character(s) is defeated when the Evil Character(s) in battle are discarded, ignored or otherwise fails to stop the Hero from making a successful rescue such as in a mutual destruction by numbers.

Being removed from the game is not a condition causing defeat, unless the hero successfully rescues. Only discard is listed.

The use of discard, ignore, and mutual destruction and just examples of "fails to stop the Hero". Also, it sounds like you're claiming that no one can be defeated in a battle challenge? I think the relevant part is the second sentence, the character is "stopped from achieving his goal in battle," which is clarified for ECs as removing the attacking Heroes.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #3 on:** July 24, 2012, 02:41:18 PM »

According to the Rulebook (under battle resolution):

Quote

Hero Wins

Your Hero wins if one of these conditions is met:
...
All blocking Evil Characters were removed from battle. Surviving Heroes return to their owners’ territories.
...

So I would say that the hero is definitely "winning" in this situation. Considering that "winning" is NOT actually in the glossary, I have to assume that we use it's typical English definition of "defeating the opponent". Therefore that would indicate that Survivor IS actually being "defeated". Therefore the same rules that apply to DoU should also apply to SS. Right?

I think the quote about being discarded or ignored is incomplete and just leaves out the other ways to be removed from battle (capture, remove, withdraw, shuffle, set aside, etc.)

Redoubter · « **Reply #4 on:** July 24, 2012, 06:29:42 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on July 24, 2012, 02:41:18 PM

According to the Rulebook (under battle resolution):
Quote
Hero Wins

Your Hero wins if one of these conditions is met:
...
All blocking Evil Characters were removed from battle. Surviving Heroes return to their owners’ territories.
...
So I would say that the hero is definitely "winning" in this situation. Considering that "winning" is NOT actually in the glossary, I have to assume that we use it's typical English definition of "defeating the opponent". Therefore that would indicate that Survivor IS actually being "defeated". Therefore the same rules that apply to DoU should also apply to SS. Right?

I think the quote about being discarded or ignored is incomplete and just leaves out the other ways to be removed from battle (capture, remove, withdraw, shuffle, set aside, etc.)

Your quote and subsequent assertion implies that the hero created the situation where Survivor was removed from the game, when it was actually an EC. In the same way that PoJ does not activate when your Assyrian is discarded except by you, so too does the hero not 'defeat' the EC unless it successfully rescues a soul or removes the EC from battle.

I'm of course only arguing based on the wording, which needs to be updated desperately (how long have we been asking for Defeat to be done?), and I would support a change if it were clearly defined.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #5 on:** July 24, 2012, 11:43:37 PM »

Panic Demon (Pale Green) (AW)
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Pale Green • Ability: 2 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: If rescue attempt fails, you may place this card on a Hero in a territory. Hero cannot enter battle while this Panic Demon remains. May band to Panic Demon. • Play As: If rescue attempt fails, place this card on a Hero in a territory and prevent Hero from entering battle while this card remains. May band to Panic Demon. • Identifiers: Generic NT Male Demon • Verse: II Timothy 1:7 • Availability: Angel Wars booster packs (Common)

If I play Suicidal Swine while this character is in battle, does it get placed?

TheJaylor · « **Reply #6 on:** July 24, 2012, 11:48:52 PM »

Quote from: RTSmaniac on July 24, 2012, 11:43:37 PM

Panic Demon (Pale Green) (AW)
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Pale Green • Ability: 2 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: If rescue attempt fails, you may place this card on a Hero in a territory. Hero cannot enter battle while this Panic Demon remains. May band to Panic Demon. • Play As: If rescue attempt fails, place this card on a Hero in a territory and prevent Hero from entering battle while this card remains. May band to Panic Demon. • Identifiers: Generic NT Male Demon • Verse: II Timothy 1:7 • Availability: Angel Wars booster packs (Common)

If I play Suicidal Swine while this character is in battle, does it get placed?

I'm gonna go with no because once the evil character is removed and all the lost souls are shuffled it becomes a battle challenge and does not meet the requirement of "rescue attempt" on Panic Demon.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #7 on:** July 25, 2012, 03:26:02 AM »

It's a fact that Panic Demon+Death of Unrighteous results in a placed Panic Demon. Haven't read the thread but bear in mind what that says about the terms being discussed here.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #8 on:** July 25, 2012, 09:36:18 AM »

Quote from: KoalaKingoFA on July 24, 2012, 11:48:52 PM

I'm gonna go with no because once the evil character is removed and all the lost souls are shuffled it becomes a battle challenge and does not meet the requirement of "rescue attempt" on Panic Demon.

Any battle that starts as a "rescue attempt" but does NOT end up in a rescued LS is a "failed rescue". The fact that it changes to a "battle challenge" doesn't change the fact that it used to be a "rescue attempt", and it failed.

I think the Panic Demon would be placed. I don't think it matters whether it would have been discarded (DoU) or removed (SSS). This is just like if a character is being discarded or removed from battle, a negate still undoes both. Remove seems like it is only permanent if it "finishes" after all other special abilities are done.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #9 on:** July 25, 2012, 09:48:26 AM »

There are too many phrases used in Redemption that have similar (but not identical) meanings. This would beg the question as to why the playtesters chose to create so many undefined terms without also defining them. There has to be a distinction between words/phrases that fits logical outcomes.

1. Winning a battle and rescuing are not the same thing (since you can win a BC).
2. An EC being defeated is not necessarily the same as allowing a rescue.
3. A Hero can win a battle while the EC can still have a successful block.

We need hard and fast definitions for the various phrases, sometime shortly after Nats.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #10 on:** July 25, 2012, 02:02:24 PM »

Yeah, Natz 2008.

megamanlan · « **Reply #11 on:** August 04, 2012, 06:37:54 PM »

I would say Yes Survivor does because he's still losing the battle (by effect) and its also why Death of Unrighteous works.

Gabe · « **Reply #12 on:** December 27, 2012, 12:03:46 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on July 25, 2012, 09:48:26 AM

There are too many phrases used in Redemption that have similar (but not identical) meanings. This would beg the question as to why the playtesters chose to create so many undefined terms without also defining them. There has to be a distinction between words/phrases that fits logical outcomes.

1. Winning a battle and rescuing are not the same thing (since you can win a BC).
2. An EC being defeated is not necessarily the same as allowing a rescue.
3. A Hero can win a battle while the EC can still have a successful block.

Sorry that I'm late to the game on this discussion, but I just saw this post when it was linked from another thread.

The first example above is true for the reason given in parenthesis.

The second example could also be true in the case of a battle challenge.

I can't think of an example where the third statement is true. YMT, do you remember what made you draw that conclusion?

Josh · « **Reply #13 on:** December 27, 2012, 12:18:36 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on December 27, 2012, 12:03:46 PM

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on July 25, 2012, 09:48:26 AM
3. A Hero can win a battle while the EC can still have a successful block.
I can't think of an example where the third statement is true. YMT, do you remember what made you draw that conclusion?

I think the example thrown around for 3. in YMT's list above is this scenario:

Player A attacks with Philip/Bartholomew. Player B defends with Herodias. Player B plays Failed Objective. Herodias successfully blocked Phil and Bart. Playing Failed Objective converted the Rescue Attempt to a Battle Challenge, which Phil/Bart won, since Herodias was discarded.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #14 on:** December 27, 2012, 12:20:38 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on December 27, 2012, 12:03:46 PM

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on July 25, 2012, 09:48:26 AM
3. A Hero can win a battle while the EC can still have a successful block.
I can't think of an example where the third statement is true. YMT, do you remember what made you draw that conclusion?

Wouldn't a hero blocked by Uzzah be an example of this 3rd situation. The hero would remain in battle after Uzzah discarded himself. Therefore the hero would "win" the battle. However no LS would be rescued due to the protection from Uzzah's sacrifice. Therefore it would be a "failed rescue attempt" and therefore a "successful block". Right?

instaposted

Gabe · « **Reply #15 on:** December 27, 2012, 12:33:29 PM »

Yes, thanks, Mark. Sometimes I overlook the obvious.

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Author Topic: Assyrian Survivor and Suicidal Swine Stampede (Read 3393 times)

Drrek

Assyrian Survivor and Suicidal Swine Stampede

Redoubter

Re: Assyrian Survivor and Suicidal Swine Stampede

TimMierz

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Prof Underwood

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Redoubter

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RTSmaniac

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TheJaylor

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Minister Polarius

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Prof Underwood

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YourMathTeacher

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Minister Polarius

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megamanlan

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Gabe

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Josh

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Prof Underwood

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Gabe

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