Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: aurseth on August 05, 2015, 02:13:43 PM
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I was playing a game the other day, and I ran across a new situation (new for me at least). My opponent had the Assyrian Camp in play, which protects all Assyrian evil characters in the holder's territory from discard, conversion, and capture unless King Hezekiah is in play or set-aside. I started a rescue attempt and used Sowing the Seed (which decreases the human evil character 2/2 until it reaches */0 and then becomes a green brigade hero. The effect then jumps to another evil character in that person's territory) on her evil Assyrian character in battle. I lost the battle, but the card was not negated and thus went back with the evil Assyrian. The dilemma is this, does the Assyrian Camp prevent Sowing the Seed's ability?
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I believe the evil character would continue to decrease then upon reaching zero, the evil character is protected from discard and conversion and would remain in territory.
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The Evil Character would be decreased but protected from discard and conversion. Since neither happen, Sowing cannot move to a different EC. If the EC leaves territory, it would be discarded by game rule.
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Wouldn't StS instead the discard by game rule to a convert and move to another Character?
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Since the characters are also protected from conversion, nothing happens. It would just sit there as a */0 EC in territory.
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I'm actually not sure on this now. Looking again at the wording, it just says "Then Sowing the Seed is placed on another human Evil Character in territory and continues." That doesn't indicate to me that the new place ability hinges on the convert, just that it happens after. So whether the convert actually converts or not I don't see anything that would prevent StS from moving to a new EC and beginning the decrease again.
The listed errata/play as changes the ability (adding the "if converted" qualifier) and StS is not on the official errata thread so it should be ignored.
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Okay, I think I agree Browarod. My question now though is this: once the evil characters are brought down to a */0, can they even enter battle, or must they stay in the territory?
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They can enter battle and their ability activates but as soon as that completes (or if its prevented) they get discarded by game rule for having 0 or less toughness.
And don't consider my thoughts correct on your initial question, The Guardian is an Elder so his thoughts are more official than mine. I'd wait to get confirmation either way from another Elder or REP.
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I would have to look at Sowing the Seed closer, (don't have the exact ability in front of me), but browarod could very well be correct.
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Sowing the Seed - Selected human Evil Character decreases 2/2 per turn. At */0 or less, Character becomes a Green brigade Hero with abilities (*/*) at face value. Then Sowing the Seed is placed on another human Evil Character in territory and continues.
Even with the original ability, the word "then" signifies that moving StS only happens after the convert.
Wouldn't StS instead the discard by game rule to a convert and move to another Character?
I believe he was asking if StS would instead the discard by game rule into the convert once the EC leaves territory and thus the protection.
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I would disagree that "then" implies "only", it's just an explanation of what happens in what order. I don't see an indication in the ability that it's a cost:benefit ability (reset and convert the character instead to place on a new EC), it just seems like a list of things that happen in a specified order (decrease until /0 or less, reset and convert instead, place on new EC).
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My thinking was the same as Praeceps, but I think both interpretations are valid--do we have any other "Then" cards that are worded similarly?
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My thinking was the same as Praeceps, but I think both interpretations are valid--do we have any other "Then" cards that are worded similarly?
The only one that comes to mind is Haman's Plot:
Holder may discard any three characters in play or in a set-aside area. But, then, holder must tear this card in half. Cannot be interrupted, prevented or negated.
The only difference is that is has a "but, then" rather than just a "then" and I know if you don't activate the first ability the second doesn't happen.
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Haman's Plot comes immediately to mind: Holder may discard any three characters in play or in a set-aside area. But, then, holder must tear this card in half. Cannot be interrupted, prevented or negated.
There have been plenty of times where people have had to rip it with it having discarded nothing due to protection.
*instaposted*
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There have been plenty of times where people have had to rip it with it having discarded nothing due to protection.
Why exactly? :scratch:
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Well, I've seen people play it thinking they could discard something but then it was protected, but they had already ripped.
So I guess there's a difference between "having already ripped it" and "are required to rip it" that could be important here.
My point was that I've never had anyone claim the ripping was contingent on the discard. If you choose to do anything you discard (limited by protection) and you tear. You don't discard-to-tear in my experience. If it's a cost-benefit, it seems worded more like you tear-to-discard, if anything.
If that's not the case then that's fine (though I would still disagree), but both cards should be treated the same for consistency.
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And don't consider my thoughts correct on your initial question, The Guardian is an Elder so his thoughts are more official than mine. I'd wait to get confirmation either way from another Elder or REP.
I definitely will. I guess all I meant was that your interpretation made more sense to me than The Guardian's did at first, but I see now how both of you have very valid points.
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I have one more question: why isn't the evil character in question converted into a hero upon leaving the territory and entering battle? The StS could then jump to one of his or her non-Assyrian human evil characters, thus completing all the actions on the card.
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Because the trigger on StS is only met once (per character), as soon as the character hits /0 or less. It doesn't just sit there stewing and waiting to convert. Convert is an instant ability so it either happens when triggered or it doesn't.
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After reading the ability it sorta looks to me like the "then" is contingent on the "At */0 or less" part, not the convert. I guess I could see it either way but I feel like it could say "At */0 or less do blah-de-blah. Then, do something else," making whatever it can (or cannot, in this scenario) do irrelevant.
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I assume the elders are discussing this?
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This is a pretty straight forward ruling here so I doubt they are talking about it. The "then" part of sowing the seeds is contingent on the decrease, the convert, and abilities returning to face value. The way that it is written there is no other possible explanation. It almost reads like a cost benefit ability.
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I disagree that this has an obvious ruling. I would recommend an Elder discussion, if one is not happening behind the scenes. What must happen before the "then" part triggers is very important. Other scenarios:
1.) What if an infected EC is decreased to */0 by another method (i.e. Crown of Thorns)?
2.) What if an infected EC is converted by another method (i.e. Holy Grail) before it reaches */0?
I think the original question is valid. What parts of Sowing the Seeds' SA are contingent upon the others (if at all)?
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I've not ignored this thread. I am trying to figure out the answer to something related first for certain, then I will return :)
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I've not ignored this thread. I am trying to figure out the answer to something related first for certain, then I will return :)
I saw what you did there. ;)
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I saw what you did there. ;)
You saw nothing 8)
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hahaha good one.
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Any update on this? If it helps, I found that Leprosy from Warriors has very similar wording (but discards instead of converting at */0 or less): "Selected Hero decreases 0/2 per turn. If Hero reaches */0 or less, discard Hero. Then Leprosy is placed on another Hero in that territory and continues."