Cactus Game Design Message Boards

The best way to deal with it in your playgroup is to use it as a teaching moment: "Look at the way the card is worded: can you tell if it is a response or a gained ability?  Even top players could not agree."

The playtesters had to make a call. 

If we treat it as an ability gained by the first hero who enters battle, then it happens before choose blocker.
If we treat it as a response, then it happens after choose the blocker.

Since there was debate among top players, the playtesters got to decide.  We opted for the gained ability option.

This has nothing to do with the strength of red brigade.  We know the combo has a couple reliable counters (artifacts don't count, though, since Captured Ark makes those go away).  But we feel that a CBN battle-winner combo that opponent only watches, and that only 2 cards can reliably counter is not good for the game.  So, we chose the "gained ability" option.

and labeled a "triggered" ability by Sir Nobody, and you chose to listen more to 3 Liner.  No offense meant to 3 Liner, but he doesn't carry nearly the same weight as Sir Nobody.

But Tim was talking about Agur and placed Enhancements, not P&UB.  I am literalist, no one came out and explicitly said P&UB is a triggered ability, and no one corrected 3 Liner.  I will not read into Tim's post that he meant P&UB was a triggered ability because he did not say so.  he said:

Hey,

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on December 06, 2009, 03:10:19 PM
The one thing we still need to add to that list to help clear things up... placed enhancements. Some say they activate as a gained ability, some say they activate with WC enhs...

Assuming by "placed enhancements" you mean enhancements placed by abilities like the one on Agur, they don't activate at all, they are triggered.  Triggered abilities always take effect after ALL activated abilities.  Which means they take effect after choose the blocker abilities.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Where in that statement is he saying P&UB was a triggered ability?  I am not trying to be difficult, but I don't see that statement implied or stated there.  He said Triggered abilities activate after CTB.  He didn't say P&UB was a triggered ability.  I guess I could try to PM more official people to get answers, but what good is that if only I get to read it?  Answers to questions like this need to be public so ALL hosts can see it not just me.  Is this not a good thing?

Quote from: Korunks on May 14, 2010, 10:04:19 AM

I have to go with whatever is given to me by the forums whether good or bad.  In the case of the playtester, I give him the same weight I would give any of the major players(such as yourself, Prof U., Prof A, Gabe, Pol, Lambo, and many more) because he like some of the other players is occasionally wrong.

The problem is that in your thread P&UB was labeled a "gained" ability by 3 Liner and a Bag of Chips, and labeled a "triggered" ability by Sir Nobody, and you chose to listen more to 3 Liner.  No offense meant to 3 Liner, but he doesn't carry nearly the same weight as Sir Nobody.

If you want to know what the official ruling on something is, then I would say make sure that your thread has a consensus of the "major players" as you called them above, or that it gets a stamp of approval from Bryon, Mike B., or Rob.  If they don't show up in your thread, then send them a PM and they will probably check it out.

Having read through that thread again, I completely agree with Korunks that NOWHERE in there was it stated that P&UB was labeled as a triggered ability, the conversation shifted back to the Agur-Placed enhancements debate, and away from Korunk's original question. To be honest, at that point I thought it was a gained ability as well, and it wasnt until like, a week or two ago that I learned it was a triggered ability. I completely understand why Korunks was so confused now.

The best way to deal with it in your playgroup is to use it as a teaching moment: "Look at the way the card is worded: can you tell if it is a response or a gained ability?  Even top players could not agree."

The playtesters had to make a call.

If we treat it as an ability gained by the first hero who enters battle, then it happens before choose blocker.
If we treat it as a response, then it happens after choose the blocker.

Since there was debate among top players, the playtesters got to decide.  We opted for the gained ability option.

This has nothing to do with the strength of red brigade.  We know the combo has a couple reliable counters (artifacts don't count, though, since Captured Ark makes those go away).  But we feel that a CBN battle-winner combo that opponent only watches, and that only 2 cards can reliably counter is not good for the game.  So, we chose the "gained ability" option.

Is this considered the official ruling on this ability, or should we wait for a more official post?  I have a tourney tomorrow and would like to know how to rule P&UB.  I guess I learned a lesson here, that I should take a lot more of the rulings tossed around here with a grain of salt.  I apologize if I hurt any feelings, but I felt misled by the previous conversation and may have overreacted.  I guess I can just say I made the correct ruling months before it became the law .  

Quote from: Korunks on May 14, 2010, 12:05:34 PM

I guess I can just say I made the correct ruling months before it became the law . 

That'd be a great way to judge a tournament:

"Is this legal?"
"No."
"Why not? There's been nothing in the REG or by the PTB saying it isn't."
"Just you wait, there will be."

what an awesome character to make for the create-a-card...a judge and prophet rolled into one.

*Comes back with the shotgun*

BANG!

Oh fiddlesticks... I missed my mark.

*Goes to get more ammo*

Pun = joke = laugh = BEST FRIENDS FOREVER!!

5-7 cards is not 'so many' additionally all of them less one are counter-counter-able.

Imagine tossing this into a place-loop, or a gathered chain. This makes it a combo that is fairly unstoppable, sure you might get around it once, but I can simply do it again.

Please toss it into a gathered chain. I do so love HHI. Maybe its cuz I use more artifacts than any sane person would but I am just not seeing errata level brokenness and if there WAS, it should of been fixed LONG before now.

The best way to deal with it in your playgroup is to use it as a teaching moment: "Look at the way the card is worded: can you tell if it is a response or a gained ability?  Even top players could not agree."

The playtesters had to make a call. 

If we treat it as an ability gained by the first hero who enters battle, then it happens before choose blocker.
If we treat it as a response, then it happens after choose the blocker.

Since there was debate among top players, the playtesters got to decide.  We opted for the gained ability option.

This has nothing to do with the strength of red brigade.  We know the combo has a couple reliable counters (artifacts don't count, though, since Captured Ark makes those go away).  But we feel that a CBN battle-winner combo that opponent only watches, and that only 2 cards can reliably counter is not good for the game.  So, we chose the "gained ability" option.

Step one: Thank you for responding and clearing this up. Step two: If that is true that "Artifacts don't count", why aren't we still getting FBTN nerfs? C ark works twice, and only if there is just one artifact out AND it doesn't get donned. Again as said I'm a guy with way too many arts in his deck so that may be my bias but seems silly to me. Makes sense to errata it so the wording makes sense as a triggered/gained ability. Just seems weird that you'd nerf it with many viable counters. Oh wells. I got what I asked for which was the PTB answering my question.

Wording
"Upon return, place one evil character beneath deck." No confusion there.

Since when has that mattered with erratas?

Well its just my suggestion since most of the previous attempts at wording so it could still work like written (albeit at a different time) have hurt my head.

I like!

Needs more errata.

Thats still a totally different ability, since as you said, stuff like ANB and Two Bears would play VERY differently.

*edit*

How about this?

Set aside all of your human Heroes for one turn. For the next one of those Heroes that enters battle, it gains the following ability for one turn: Return an Evil Character in play to bottom of owner's draw pile.

Keep the same original wording, but just specify its a GAINED ability. Is there any problem with this?

But that's still a trigger. You'd still be able to pull off the combo with this, since you gain the ability after you enter battle.