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Well I know it is under discussion, but it has been ruled that if you have Asahel in battle, and play grapes, he will remain in battle and it's basically an auto-win.

Should A New Beginning have this same effect? They are both shuffle abilities, and both "return" characters to your deck. So if I banded armorbearer to Asahel, choose Leviathan (I have initiative), and played ANB, Asahel should remain in battle, right?

Asahel
Type: Hero Char. • Brigade: Red • Ability: 5 / 4 • Class: Warrior • Special Ability: May band to an O.T. warrior class human Hero or may choose opponent's male human Evil Character to block. Protect Asahel from withdraw and return abilities.

Grapes of Wrath
Type: Lamb • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Discard an evil card in battle to shuffle all remaining characters in battle into owners’ decks. If the current rescuer doesn't have the most Redeemed Souls, he may begin a new battle. • Errata: Discard an evil card in battle to shuffle [return] all remaining characters in battle into owners’ decks. If no Heroes remain in battle and the current rescuer doesn't have the most Redeemed Souls, he may begin a new battle.

A New Beginning
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Green • Ability: 4 / 5 • Class: None • Special Ability: ALL players shuffle ALL cards in the field of play, set-aside areas and their hands back into their draw pile. Only cards in Land of Redemption and discard piles remain. ALL players Draw 8 new cards. Holder may begin a new turn. • Errata: If making a rescue attempt, remove this card from the game to shuffle [return] all cards in play, set aside areas, and hands into decks. End the battle. All players draw 8. End the turn. Begin a new turn.

Ok. The reason I asked was because Prof last stated that Asahel+Grapes works for now, but don't expect it to for long. So will ANB work for now, but not for long?

Ok. But what about Grapes having an errata that specifically states "return?" Is that going to be changed?

Ok, thanks. I didn't know that.

Ok, so he chose Saph.

Because a ruling is likely to be made in the future does not mean we go by it now. Until it's official, Asahel will ride out ANB and win a soul, provided Thorns is in play or the souls are protected from shuffle some other way.

Because a ruling is likely to be made in the future does not mean we go by it now. Until it's official, Asahel will ride out ANB and win a soul, provided Thorns is in play or the souls are protected from shuffle some other way.

It's not like "likely to be made in the future." It's been confirmed to be the ruling, but has not been officially announced in a ruling thread, and because of where we are in the tournament season, there's no reason to believe that it will not be announced soon.

Quote from: Minister Polarius on September 03, 2011, 08:25:43 PM

Because a ruling is likely to be made in the future does not mean we go by it now. Until it's official, Asahel will ride out ANB and win a soul, provided Thorns is in play or the souls are protected from shuffle some other way.

Oh, awesome. Thanks.

But while this seems to be technically legal for now, Asahel still falls victim to the "only win one LS per turn" so while he would win the LS after ANB he would be able to begin a new turn but not for a RA.

Even if Asahel doesn't shuffle, he still can't rescue a soul.

A New Beginning (Pa)

Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Green • Ability: 4 / 5 • Class: None • Special Ability: ALL players shuffle ALL cards in the field of play, set-aside areas and their hands back into their draw pile. Only cards in Land of Redemption and discard piles remain. ALL players Draw 8 new cards. Holder may begin a new turn. • Errata: If making a rescue attempt, remove this card from the game to shuffle [return] all cards in play, set aside areas, and hands into decks. End the battle. All players draw 8. End the turn. Begin a new turn. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Genesis 8:15-17 • Availability: Patriarchs booster packs (Ultra Rare)

Right, duh. I just had a feeling this had been brought up before and I got a similar answer.

Well I know it is under discussion, but it has been ruled that if you have Asahel in battle, and play grapes, he will remain in battle and it's basically an auto-win.

Should A New Beginning have this same effect? They are both shuffle abilities, and both "return" characters to your deck. So if I banded armorbearer to Asahel, choose Leviathan (I have initiative), and played ANB, Asahel should remain in battle, right?

If this did or would have came up at Nationals it would have been ruled that Asahel does not rescue a lost soul in either situation and it should be ruled that way now.

The traditional definition of "shuffle" has put it as a subcategory of "return", which means that the traditional ruling of Asahel+Grapes would leave Asahel in battle.

I think we are really close to having a new official ruling regarding the relationships between "shuffle" and "return" (as well as "withdraw" and a couple other related abilities).  When that is announced, the traditional ruling on Asahel+Grapes is most likely to get reversed.

But as for now, he is protected from shuffle abilities, yes?

No, Bryon ruled that it didn't work last year when this first came up. It still doesn't work.