Cactus Game Design Message Boards

But as for now, he is protected from shuffle abilities, yes?

In spite of the categories (or subcategories) of varying abilities, the ruling is based off the wording. "Shuffle" and "return" are different abilities. Whether they should have been, are now, or will be later has been the subject of much debate. I look forward to a speedy end to that debate with a definitive, logical ruling based on the new REG.

Well I think Gabe counts as the other Elder, but yeah a link would be nice. I believe you though. 

Well I think Gabe counts as the other Elder, but yeah a link would be nice.

Gabe certainly would count as another Elder, but I don't remember whether he posted on that old thread of Bryon's in support of the ruling.

However, it does not contradict the old REG, which is what the old ruling was based on (IMO).

This is another part of the problem.  The ruling that Gabe is talking about came out back before the new REG came out.  Therefore, it would seem that the new REG would supersede that old ruling.  This is another reason why it is important for there to be updated Elder confirmation that this ruling is actually changing.

1. Many back-and-forth discussions about whether Asahel stays out after Grapes.
2. Asahel is ruled to not stay out, based on the old REG.
3. Prof Underwood makes cryptic comment about future changes to the ruling.
4. New REG comes out, but we are told to keep the old ruling until further notice.
5. Further notice has not arrived, and everybody is confused.

I guess much of this could just be due to misconceptions on my/your/others part.  This was my understanding of the progression:

1. Shuffle had always been ruled as a subcategory of return.
2. Someone figured out that a combo could be made with Asahel + Grapes.
3. A thread was posted where Bryon indicated that it wouldn't work, but discussion continued.
4. Things were unclear for all of last year, and it was played differently in different parts of the country.
5. The elders discussed how to tighten up the definitions to deal with this and other problems.
6. The new REG comes out which seemed to support the parts of the country that were ruling that the combo worked.
7. At some point this result of the elder's discussion will be announced and the problems resolved.
8. After that, arguing and complaining about the new ruling ensues

Things were never unclear last year. Asahel + Grapes worked.

This proves Prof U's point, because I have never ruled that Grapes + Asahel would work.

So until that announcement is made, the combo works, yes?

I really don't know how to answer that question.  Any of the 3 answers below could work.  I guess I lean toward #1.

1.  Yes the combo works because the new REG supports it, and there hasn't been elder confirmation that it has changed.

2.  No it doesn't work because the elders are going to announce later that it doesn't work so why get used to playing it now when you won't be able to count on it later.

3.  It depends on what area of the country you live in.  Since the elders haven't made an official announcement yet, tournament hosts should just continue ruling it the way that they have in the past.

I've been trying to find a more recent thread on this ruling and errata. Just wondering if Asahel is protected from shuffle?