Author Topic: Artifacts in and out of Play (Read 15918 times)

TimMierz · « **on:** August 11, 2008, 03:35:45 PM »

King Hazael: "You may discard a gray brigade enhancement from hand to discard an O.T. Fortress or occupied Site. Opponent may discard one of his Artifacts instead."

Split Altar: "Shuffle all Artifacts of each opponent into owners' deck. You may play the next Enhancement. Cannot be negated."

Do the above cards only target active (in play) artifacts, or artifacts in the artifact pile as well?

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #1 on:** August 11, 2008, 03:44:06 PM »

In discussion with Mike B. this weekend he told me that Split Altar targets the artifact pile as well as the active artifacts. (Redemption Commandment - All means All), I would assume that this holds true for the King as well.

TimMierz · « **Reply #2 on:** August 11, 2008, 03:45:32 PM »

"All means all" doesn't mean much to me; Authority of Christ doesn't discard out-of-play Evil Characters, for instance. If the artifact pile is out of play, why does Split Altar target it?

DaClock · « **Reply #3 on:** August 11, 2008, 03:46:35 PM »

Even though they are face down and out of play, they are still artifacts. I also believe that the INTENT of split altar was to target them. However, I'm not a ruling authority.

frisian9 · « **Reply #4 on:** August 11, 2008, 07:25:43 PM »

Sometimes context does mean something. King Hazael allows you to discard one of your artifacts, where artifacts is used in a plural sense. That would at first glance infer that you pick one from your artifact pile. That was intended. I didn't consider the possibility of draw pile or discard pile. That may need a default condition in the REG.

Split Altar is the card I see as more ambiguous. It is written with the artifact pile in mind. You are correct in stating that the artifact pile is in play. All artifacts in the pile are shuffled. Looking over all the cards that have an artifact in the SA, we typically use the word "active" or "face down" in special abilities to single out one in particular from a pile. Those that refer to an "artifact in play" assume the one activated.

Mike

frisian9 · « **Reply #5 on:** August 11, 2008, 07:36:41 PM »

Miscellaneous (Default Conditions)
• Unless specified otherwise, Artifacts being targeted are located in the Artifact pile

Any problem with adding this to the REG?

Mike

frisian9 · « **Reply #6 on:** August 11, 2008, 07:58:19 PM »

Aaron ("Protect your Tabernacle Artifacts from evil discard abilities while Aaron remains in play. May band to Miriam.") could protect Tabernacle Artifacts that are in play or out of play, right? Protect does not have limits to in play or out of play. Should this be limited to those that are activated?

Desecrate the Temple ("If used by a Babylonian, discard an Artifact, Temple or good Dominant in opponent's territory. If there are none, discard one from opponent's deck instead.") allows an artifact in your territory, which includes face up and face down in your artifact pile, right?

Mike

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #7 on:** August 11, 2008, 09:30:12 PM »

I agree, since "active artifact" is never specified on those cards.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #8 on:** August 11, 2008, 10:12:42 PM »

Hey Mr. B,

Quote from: frisian9 on August 11, 2008, 07:36:41 PM

Miscellaneous (Default Conditions)
• Unless specified otherwise, Artifacts being targeted are located in the Artifact pile

Any problem with adding this to the REG?

I know this may sound rather n00bish, but you might want to include something to the effect that active artifacts can be targeted even if they are not on the Artifact pile (e.g., Priestly Breastplate on a high priest in play).

TheMarti · « **Reply #9 on:** August 11, 2008, 10:20:07 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on August 11, 2008, 10:12:42 PM

Hey Mr. B,

Quote from: frisian9 on August 11, 2008, 07:36:41 PM
Miscellaneous (Default Conditions)
• Unless specified otherwise, Artifacts being targeted are located in the Artifact pile

Any problem with adding this to the REG?

I know this may sound rather n00bish, but you might want to include something to the effect that active artifacts can be targeted even if they are not on the Artifact pile (e.g., Priestly Breastplate on a high priest in play).

Yes, you are such a n00b. Not really... actually, that isn't always clear to people either.

SirNobody · « **Reply #10 on:** August 11, 2008, 10:42:44 PM »

Hey,

The default condition for a discard ability is that the target has to be in play. If the default for targeting artifacts is artifacts in the Artifact Pile, (since cards in the artifact pile are usually not in play) then which default condition takes precident on a "discard an artifact" ability? Currently all default conditions apply to special abilities, not to card types. I think it would be best to keep it that way so that we avoid having the possibility for conflicting default conditions.

Shuffling all active artifacts (since they are the only ones in play) seems like an adequite ability for Split Altar. Not ideal, but adequite. If we want it to do more, we can always give it errata.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #11 on:** August 11, 2008, 10:45:14 PM »

Tim, Wasn't it you that suggested that Split Altar be reworded like a month ago? I think the best way to go is Errata it so that it explicitly states that it targets the artifact pile.

SirNobody · « **Reply #12 on:** August 11, 2008, 11:12:49 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: The Epic One on August 11, 2008, 10:45:14 PM

Tim, Wasn't it you that suggested that Split Altar be reworded like a month ago?

Yes, I believe I was.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne

777Godspeed · « **Reply #13 on:** August 11, 2008, 11:22:04 PM »

From the rumor mill, it seems Split Altar was intended to target the Artifact Pile as a way to get U&T shuffled back into a draw pile. There are many more benefits than just shuffling U&T, but alot of players despise U&T and, If memory serves, this was one of the 3 ways that face down artifacts were to be targeted by RoA.

Godspeed,
Mike

golgotha · « **Reply #14 on:** August 12, 2008, 12:48:54 AM »

Guess it would also target Covenants/Curses in the Artifact pile....

Bryon · « **Reply #15 on:** August 12, 2008, 01:15:53 AM »

Quote from: 777Godspeed on August 11, 2008, 11:22:04 PM

If memory serves, this was one of the 3 ways that face down artifacts were to be targeted by RoA.

3 ways: 2 evil characters (crimson and pale green), and one evil enhancement (brown).

I never actually playtested Split Altar, and the wording on that one slipped by me. I assumed it shuffled the artifact piles, but according to the exact wording, it does not. Still, shuffling all opponents' active artifacts is very helpful. Many strategies count on certain artifacts being in active.

Hedgehogman · « **Reply #16 on:** August 12, 2008, 07:40:47 AM »

So Split Altar does not shuffle the entire Art pile? I was under the assumption that it did.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #17 on:** August 12, 2008, 09:13:40 AM »

Well.... if all it does is shuffle the ACTIVE arts without negating them....

There's ANOTHER worthless promo. >.>

TechnoEthicist · « **Reply #18 on:** August 12, 2008, 10:19:38 AM »

but the crimson and PG are not SURE-FIRE ways to shuffle in U/T, just a random....at least Split would be able to ensure any of the unused arts are dealt with....Can we get a final ruling on this before I see if I want to use them still for type II or start selling my extras?

Hedgehogman · « **Reply #19 on:** August 12, 2008, 10:42:46 AM »

Quote from: frisian9 on August 11, 2008, 07:25:43 PM

Sometimes context does mean something. King Hazael allows you to discard one of your artifacts, where artifacts is used in a plural sense. That would at first glance infer that you pick one from your artifact pile. That was intended. I didn't consider the possibility of draw pile or discard pile. That may need a default condition in the REG.

Split Altar is the card I see as more ambiguous. It is written with the artifact pile in mind. You are correct in stating that the artifact pile is in play. All artifacts in the pile are shuffled. Looking over all the cards that have an artifact in the SA, we typically use the word "active" or "face down" in special abilities to single out one in particular from a pile. Those that refer to an "artifact in play" assume the one activated.

Mike

I'm definitely with Mike on this one. Either that, or an errata for Split Altar is in order.

Bryon · « **Reply #20 on:** August 12, 2008, 10:45:48 AM »

If my enhancement says "Discard an artifact," then that means "discard an artifact in play," right?

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #21 on:** August 12, 2008, 10:49:38 AM »

Theres a difference between saying "Discard an artifact" and "Shuffle an artifact PILE."

The card is targeting that ENTIRE area.

Either change the way the game treats these cards, or im building a deck to abuse face down cards and A New Beginning, as it wouldnt be able to target them either, right?

Bryon · « **Reply #22 on:** August 12, 2008, 12:06:32 PM »

It says nothing about "piles."

If Wrath of Satan doesn't discard face down ECs, then Split Altar does not shuffle face down artifacts.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #23 on:** August 12, 2008, 12:09:09 PM »

What about ANB?

SirNobody · « **Reply #24 on:** August 12, 2008, 12:16:28 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on August 12, 2008, 12:09:09 PM

What about ANB?

A New Beginning has never shuffled inactive artifacts ;-).

"Only cards in Land of Redemption and discard piles remain."

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly, WildCard Secretary of Defense
www.freewebs.com/redemptionne

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Author Topic: Artifacts in and out of Play (Read 15918 times)

TheMarti

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