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I think that is a good point.  I also recall that as the status quo ruling from the past but maybe that should be overturned.  It seems like a bottom up ruling to limit use of cards like GotM. 

What if I have Cov of Salt? that increases all Old Testament heros by 2/2 active and my opponent plays Samarias to drop my heros to 2/2.  At that point the Cov is sustaining them and as soon as I deactivate it then those heros are discarded.  So when I get to my Prep phase then that artifact is automatically being used and I can't deactivate it as long as those heros are out.  That seems consistent with Pol's Mayhem example which seems consistent with the GotM example but I don't think it should be ruled that way. 

The only distinction I can see is making the argument that choosing to play something like Feast of Trumpets with GotM is making a conscious decision to use it versus my example where it is automatic but that seems like a bad line to draw.  I think it would be much simpler to erase the limitations and just say that you get one artifact activation on your artifact pile during your prep phase regardless of the order or what else you are doing in the prep phase.

P.S. still wondering about the legality of playing evil doms between switching Lampstand to the temple.

@Galad, that's an emphatic no.

which part?  why?

Polarius is incorrect as per Gabe's post below.

This only pertains to your Artifact pile. If you have a card in play has a "holds an Artifact" identifier you may still choose to activate an Artifact on the card with the holds identifier.

Just looking for some clarification because this line of discussion is starting to confuse me. Is it legal to start a turn, draw three, deactivate an old artifact and activate a new artifact, and then play out a turn?

Yep, that's perfectly legal.

The other option to look at here is the reintroduction of an actual sequence of actions.

This might be a good solution.  Perhaps we should just say that all artifact activation has to happen at the "beginning of your prep phase" before anything else happens (ie. bringing people back from set aside or playing dominants).

That would solve all of this right?

Quote from: Minister Polarius on January 17, 2012, 01:51:13 AM

The other option to look at here is the reintroduction of an actual sequence of actions.

This might be a good solution.  Perhaps we should just say that all artifact activation has to happen at the "beginning of your prep phase" before anything else happens (ie. bringing people back from set aside or playing dominants).

That would solve all of this right?

Using the word solves implies there is a problem. Has it been established this is a problem?

I'm digging through my artifact collection (pun intended), and here's some potential problems:

• I Am Creator (AW)
  
  Type: Covenant • Brigade: Red • Ability: 3 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: If you do not have a Hero in your territory, or set-aside area, then search draw pile for a Hero and put it in your territory. Cannot be interrupted. Limit once during each of your turns. • Play As: If you do not have a Hero in your territory, or set-aside area, then search draw pile for a Hero and place it in your territory. Cannot be interrupted. Limit once during each of your turns. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Genesis 1:1 • Availability: Angel Wars booster packs (Common)
  
  No "May" ability, so I can use it during Upkeep, and then activate another art.
  
  
• Anything with "May be used X times" i.e. Cov w/ Moses.  Does the negate lasting for the beginning of the turn count as a use?

Darn CS training me to read that as if(true) //dostuff.  Sounds good, I can't find any other problems with my proposed rule clarification.  (but that's the mother of all biases)

Quote from: SomeKittens on January 17, 2012, 04:12:22 PM

Type: Covenant • Brigade: Red • Ability: 3 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: If you do not have a Hero in your territory, or set-aside area, then search draw pile for a Hero and put it in your territory. Cannot be interrupted. Limit once during each of your turns. • Play As: If you do not have a Hero in your territory, or set-aside area, then search draw pile for a Hero and place it in your territory. Cannot be interrupted. Limit once during each of your turns. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Genesis 1:1 • Availability: Angel Wars booster packs (Common)

No "May" ability, so I can use it during Upkeep, and then activate another art.

It's not a "may" ability, so it's used upon activation and only upon activation. So you can't use it during your draw or upkeep phase, sorry.

I've seen it played at other times like during battle or discard phase and remember that was ruled to be legal.  Maybe because there is a trigger that allows it to be used when fulfilled?  Since it is not a "may" ability, then do you have to search for a hero as soon as the condition is met?  That seems technically right, but I have not seen it played that way. 

Polarius is incorrect as per Gabe's post below.


Quote from: Gabe on January 16, 2012, 04:30:52 PM
This only pertains to your Artifact pile. If you have a card in play has a "holds an Artifact" identifier you may still choose to activate an Artifact on the card with the holds identifier.

This is why I'm asking is it legal to play cards between activating an artifact on the artifact pile and putting an artifact on a temple, etc.  I understand the restriction of not playing cards between the deactivation and activation of an artifact on the pile since that is a single action that happens once a turn but do the rules actually lump all artifacts together into an artifact management phase? 

sidenote: don't ongoing artifact abilities last until the end of the phase that they are active in?  I'm pretty sure this is true if they are discarded but is this true if they are deactivated?  If it is true then it wouldn't matter for evil doms if I could deactivate Lampstand, play cards, and then activate Lampstand in a temple because the ability would still be active for the prep phase which would doubly make me wonder why this was ever an issue.  Of course if this is true then it has other implications but if this is not true then I think it should be legal to fit in the evil Doms. 

with galadgawyn.  I Am Creator is worded as a trigger, NOT as a must do immediately upon activation.  The reason is that there is a duration for checking the trigger, "...during each of your turns."  I will agree that the trigger must be activated immediately when IAC is activated.  As soon as the trigger is met during the duration of the player's turn, the player must perform the search.  That's how I see it.

I Am Creator
Type: Covenant • Brigade: Red • Ability: 3 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: If you do not have a Hero in your territory, or set-aside area, then search draw pile for a Hero and put it in your territory. Cannot be interrupted. Limit once during each of your turns. • Play As: If you do not have a Hero in your territory, or set-aside area, then search draw pile for a Hero and place it in your territory. Cannot be interrupted. Limit once during each of your turns. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Genesis 1:1 • Availability: Angel Wars booster packs (Common)

I asked specifically about I Am Creator a few weeks ago, and Professoralstad said:

Quote

If an artifact has an instant ability, then it depends on whether there is a may in the ability or not. Artifacts like I am Creator and I am Redemption can only happen on activation, since there is no may. Artifacts like I am Healing or Holy Grail say may, so they can happen at anytime while they are active.

He also referenced a thread over 3 years old where Bryon said:

Quote

I Am Creator cannot be used at any time other than when it is activated.

That's where all the "may" stuff comes from.

I have read and been a part of most of those discussions.  I understand and like the ruling, but like some rulings, I find it is incomplete and creates inconsistency.  I am simply a lobbyist who continually pushes for completeness, consistency, and clarity.

The issue is that the ruling for artifact activation has been simplified too much and doesn't properly address artifact abilities that contain triggered abilities.  Make no doubt, I Am Creator contains a triggered ability.  My wish is that the definition for artifact activation be expanded enough to include a clear explanation of how triggered abilities are handled, AND if I Am Creator is to be considered as NOT having a triggered ability that an errata be given to it.

That's all. 

still looking for answers to these questions.  Is this being discussed?  Should I start another thread? just figured to keep it here since it seems to all be related.

Sorry, I didn't realize your questions hadn't been addressed. Thanks for being patient and politely asking again.

This is why I'm asking is it legal to play cards between activating an artifact on the artifact pile and putting an artifact on a temple, etc.  ...but do the rules actually lump all artifacts together into an artifact management phase?

This only pertains to your Artifact pile. If you have a card in play has a "holds an Artifact" identifier you may still choose to activate an Artifact on the card with the holds identifier.

As far as I'm aware, activating an Artifact outside of the Artifact pile, like on Solomon's Temple or Magic Charms on a magician, can be done anytime during your prep phase and is not tied to your choice to activate an Artifact on the Artifact pile.

But for all you "game breakers", I don't believe you are allowed to deactivate a specific Artifact (ex: magic charms), take other prep phase actions (play a magician) and then activate Magic Charms again. Once you choose to deactivate a specific Artifact you have chosen to have that Artifact deactive for the next round.

sidenote: don't ongoing artifact abilities last until the end of the phase that they are active in?  I'm pretty sure this is true if they are discarded but is this true if they are deactivated?

You're correct that rule applies to a card that is discarded. It does not apply to an Artifact that you choose to deactivate. The very term "deactivate" should make it clear enough that the ability is no longer "active".

Deactivate cards like Meal in Emmaus? are paired with a negate ability which wouldn't be necessary if artifact abilities went away when deactivated.  Of course they could say that was explanation of game rule text but it doesn't sound like it and I thought they are trying to move away from that.

Meal in Emmaus is from Apostles. Wording was far from standardized when that set was released. Rules have been fine tuned since then too. For examples just look at the fact that we had to errata Unholy Writ. HHI is still messy and confusing (an Artifact ignored Heroes, how does that work?) and reminder text appears on a lot of cards like this one and Take as a Slave.